Two potential "new ones"
Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
Getting back to the original question, the DXCC award scheme arose from a piece in QST by Clinton V DeSoto in the ‘30’s.
… See http://www.arrl.org/desoto for the rest of that excellent piece, and to appreciate the fundamental design of the DXCC award.
DoSoto eloquently discussed the issue of reaching consensus on what constitutes “a country”. He wrote: “The basic rule is simple and direct: Each discrete geographical or political entity is considered to be a country.” Ambiguities in that ‘simple and direct’ rule led eventually to today’s DXCC rules needing ~1900 words just to describe the criteria for qualifying ‘DXCC entities’ as they are now known (since ‘countries’ would be inappropriate for some of them e.g. UN HQ).
73 Gary ZL2iFB
PS In hope of avoiding yet another outbreak of “Entity X is impossible to work so it ought to be removed from the list”, I’ll just say that DXCC is designed to be a progressive award: while it takes effort to gain the basic award for contacting 100 entities, it is deliberately difficult to complete the full set. The ‘possibility’ of contacting entities has never been part of the DXCC rules, as far as I know. Therein lies the challenge, the accomplishment … and the fun.
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of HH Brakob
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 7:33 am To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential “new ones”
Not to worry, Ria. I would have thought that the sheer outrageousness of my question would have signaled that “my tongue was in my cheek”.
Back under my rock.
73, de Hans, KØHB “Just a Boy and his Radio”™ From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
Can’t tell if you’re kidding or not.
These two areas are not UN member states nor are they recognized by the US state department.
Therefore they do not qualify as separate DXCC entities. Therefore the DXCC list remains unchanged for now. In the unlikely event that those two areas are recognized by the UN or US state department and they have an IARU member society, they’ll be added. But that’s as likely as me operating from P5.
73 Ria N2RJ
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:03 PM HH Brakob <kzerohb@...> wrote:
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We do need to be careful as to what is counted as an entity as there have been cases where the DXCC list has been cited to bolster sovereignty claims. Ria N2RJ On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:26 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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/Hans clambers out from under his rock/
You guys are taking me (and DXCC) waaaaay too seriously! 🏳️
/back under my rock/
73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 3:50:21 PM To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones" We do need to be careful as to what is counted as an entity as there have been cases where the DXCC list has been cited to bolster sovereignty claims.
Ria
N2RJ
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:26 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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And this ladies and gentlemen, are why I prefer grid squares. You're only left with the legality of the operation to consider. That in and of itself, has enough politics to chew up lots of time and effort all by itself. :-) 73, Gordon Beattie, W2TTT in Maidenhead Grid Square EM80jh in whatever country that is... in whatever and whoever's Zone it is... on a planet near and dear to our hearts... :-) 201.314.6964 W2TTT@...
On Tuesday, February 22, 2022, 10:16:24 PM UTC, HH Brakob <kzerohb@...> wrote:
/Hans clambers out from under his rock/
You guys are taking me (and DXCC) waaaaay too seriously! 🏳️
/back under my rock/
73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 3:50:21 PM To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones" We do need to be careful as to what is counted as an entity as there have been cases where the DXCC list has been cited to bolster sovereignty claims.
Ria
N2RJ
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:26 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
‘The original question’ I mentioned was from Frank K4FMH, who asked “Was there ever a theory or concept by the ARRL or any other group about what an “entity” is to begin with?” – a reasonable query.
You’re safe under your rock, Hans. What is its fundamental frequency, I wonder?
73 Gary ZL2iFB From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of HH Brakob
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 11:16 am To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones"
/Hans clambers out from under his rock/
You guys are taking me (and DXCC) waaaaay too seriously! 🏳️
/back under my rock/
73, de Hans, KØHB “Just a Boy and his Radio”™ From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
We do need to be careful as to what is counted as an entity as there have been cases where the DXCC list has been cited to bolster sovereignty claims.
Ria N2RJ
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 3:26 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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3.579545 Mc. Stole it out of a Muntz TV.
73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™
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Dave AA6YQ
‘The original question’ I mentioned was from Frank K4FMH, who asked “Was there ever a theory or concept by the ARRL or any other group about what an “entity” is to begin with?” – a reasonable query.
+ From "Section II: DXCC List Criteria" in http://www.arrl.org/dxcc-rules
The ARRL DXCC List is the result of progressive changes in DXing since 1945. Each entity on the DXCC List contains some definable political or geographical distinctiveness. While the general policy for qualifying entities for the DXCC List has remained the same, there has been a gradual evolution in the specific details of criteria which are used to test entities for their qualifications. The full DXCC List does not conform completely with current criteria; for some of the listings were recognized from pre-WWII or were accredited with earlier versions of the criteria. In order to maintain continuity with the past, as well as to maintain a robust DXCC List, all entities on the List at the time the 1998 revision became effective were retained.
Definitions:
Certain terms occur frequently in the DXCC criteria and are listed here. Not all of the definitions given are used directly in the criteria, but are listed in anticipation of their future use.
Entity: A listing on the DXCC List; a counter for DXCC awards, previously denoted as a DXCC "Country."
Event: An historical occurrence, such as date of admission to UN or ITU that may be used in determining listing status.
Event Date: The date an Event occurs. This is the Start Date of all Event Entities.
Event Entity: An Entity created as the result of the occurrence of an Event.
Deletion Date: Date when an entity is added to the Deleted Entities List.
Discovery Entity: An Entity "Discovered" after the listing is complete. This applies only to Geographic Entities, and may occur after a future rule change, or after an Event has changed its status.
Discovery Date: Date of the rule change or Event which prompts addition of the Entity. This is the Start Date for a Discovery Entity.
Original Listing: An Entity which was on the DXCC List at the time of inception.
Start Date: The date after which confirmed two-way contact credits may be counted for DXCC awards.
Add Date: The date when the Entity will be added to the List, and cards will be accepted. This date is for administrative purposes only, and will occur after the Start Date.
Island: A naturally formed area of land surrounded by water, the surface of which is above water at high tide. For the purposes of this award, it must consist of connected land, of which at least two surface points must be separated from each other by not less than 100 meters measured in a straight line from point to point. All of the connected land must be above the high tide mark, as demonstrated on a chart of sufficient scale. For the purposes of this award, any island, reef, or rocks of less than this size shall not be considered in the application of the water separation criteria described in Part 2 of the criteria.
Criteria: Additions to the DXCC List may be made from time to time as world conditions dictate. Entities may also be removed from the List as a result of political or geographic change. Entities deleted from the List may be returned to the List in the future, should they qualify again in the future under these criteria. However, an entity that does qualify again in the future does so as a totally new Entity, not as a reinstated old one.
For inclusion in the DXCC List, conditions as set out below must be met. Listing is not contingent upon whether operation has occurred or will occur, but only upon the qualifications of the Entity.
There are five parts to the criteria, as follows:
1. Political Entities
2. Geographical Entities
3. Special Areas
4. Ineligible Areas
5. Deletion Criteria
1. Political Entities:
Political Entities are those areas which are separated by reason of government or political division. They generally contain an indigenous population which is not predominantly composed of military or scientific personnel.
An Entity will be added to the DXCC List as a Political Entity if it meets one or more of the following criteria:
a) The entity is a UN Member State.
b) The entity has been assigned a callsign prefix bloc by the ITU. (The exceptions to this rule are international organizations, such as the UN and ICAO. These Entities are classified under Special Areas, 3.a); and Ineligible Areas, 4.b).) A provisional prefix bloc assignment may be made by the Secretary General of ITU. Should such provisional assignments not be ratified later by the full ITU, the Entity will be deleted from the DXCC List.
c) The entity contains a permanent population, is administered by a local government, and is located at least 800 km from its parent. To satisfy the "permanent population" and "administered by a local government" criteria of this sub-section, an Entity must be listed on either (a) the U.S. Department of State's list of "Dependencies and Areas of Special Sovereignty" as having a local "AdministrativeCenter," or (b) the United Nations list of "Non-Self-Governing Territories."
d) The entity has a separate IARU member society AND is included on the U.S. State Department Independent States in the World.
New Entities satisfying one or more of the conditions above will be added to the DXCC List by administrative action as of their "Event Date."
Entities qualifying under this section will be referred to as the "Parent" when considering separation under the section "Geographical Separation." Only entities in this group will be acceptable as a Parent for separation purposes.
2. Geographic Separation Entity
A Geographic Separation Entity may result when a single Political Entity is physically separated into two or more parts. The part of such a Political Entity that contains the capital city is considered the Parent for tests under these criteria. One or more of the remaining parts resulting from the separation may then qualify for separate status as a DXCC Entity if they satisfy paragraph a) or b) of the Geographic Separation Criteria, as follows.
a) Land Areas:
A new Entity results when part of a DXCC Entity is separated from its Parent by 100 kilometers or more of land of another DXCC Entity. Inland waters may be included in the measurement. The test for separation into two areas requires that a line drawn along a great circle in any direction from any part of the proposed Entity must not touch the Parent before crossing 100 kilometers of the intervening DXCC Entity.
b) Island Areas (Separation by Water):
A new entity results in the case of an island under any of the following conditions:
i) The island is separated from its Parent, and any other islands that make up the DXCC entity that contains the Parent, by 350 kilometers or more. Measurement of islands in a group begins with measurement from the island containing the capital city. Only one entity of this type may be attached to any Parent.
ii) The island is separated from its Parent by 350 kilometers or more, and from any other island attached to that Parent in the same or a different island group by 800 kilometers or more.
iii) The island is separated from its Parent by intervening land or islands that are part of another DXCC entity, such that a line drawn along a great circle in any direction, from any part of the island, does not touch the Parent before touching the intervening DXCC entity. There is no minimum separation distance for the first island entity created under this rule. Additional island entities may be created under this rule, provided that they are similarly separated from the Parent by a different DXCC entity and separated from any other islands associated with the Parent by at least 800 km.
3. Special Areas:
The Special Areas listed here may not be divided into additional Entities under the DXCC Rules. None of these constitute a Parent Entity, and none creates a precedent for the addition of similar or additional Entities.
a) The International Telecommunications Union in Geneva (4U1ITU) shall, because of its significance to world telecommunications, be considered as a Special Entity. No additional UN locations will be considered under this ruling.
b) The Antarctic Treaty, signed on December 1, 1959 and entered into force on June 23, 1961, establishes the legal framework for the management of Antarctica. The treaty covers, as stated in Article 6, all land and ice shelves below 60 degrees South. This area is known as the Antarctic Treaty Zone. Article 4 establishes that parties to the treaty will not recognize, dispute, or establish territorial claims and that they will assert no new claims while the treaty is in force. Under Article 10, the treaty States will discourage activities by any country in Antarctica that are contrary to the terms of the treaty. In view of these Treaty provisions, no new entities below 60 degrees south will be added to the DXCC List as long as the Treaty remains in force.
c) The Spratly Islands, due to the nature of conflicting claims, and without recognizing or refuting any claim, is recognized as a Special Entity. Operations from this area will be accepted with the necessary permissions issued by an occupying Entity. Operations without such permissions, such as with a self-assigned (e.g., 1S) callsign, will not be recognized for DXCC credit.
d) Control of Western Sahara (S0) is currently an issue between Morocco and the indigenous population. The UN has stationed a peacekeeping force there. Until the sovereignty issue is settled, only operations licensed by the RASD shall count for DXCC purposes.
e) Entities on the 1998 DXCC List that do not qualify under the current criteria remain as long as they retain the status under which they were originally added. A change in that status will result in a review in accordance with Rule 5 of this Section.
4. Ineligible Areas:
a) Areas having the following characteristics are not eligible for inclusion on the DXCC List, and are considered as part of the host Entity for DXCC purposes:
i) Any extraterritorial legal Entity of any nature including, but not limited to, embassies, consulates, monuments, offices of the United Nations agencies or related organizations, other inter-governmental organizations or diplomatic missions.
ii) Any area with limited sovereignty or ceremonial status, such as monuments, indigenous areas, reservations, and homelands.
iii) Any area classified as a Demilitarized Zone, Neutral Zone or Buffer Zone.
b) Any area which is unclaimed or not owned by any recognized government is not eligible for inclusion on the DXCC List and will not count for DXCC purposes.
5. Deletion Criteria:
a) An Entity may be deleted from the List if it no longer satisfies the criteria under which it was added. However, if the Entity continues to meet one or more currently existing rules, it will remain on the List.
b) An Entity may be deleted from the List if it was added to the List:
i) Based on a factual error (Examples of factual errors include inaccurate measurements, or observations from incomplete, inaccurate or outdated charts or maps); and
ii) The error was made less than five years earlier than its proposed deletion date.
c) A change in the DXCC Criteria shall not affect the status of any Entity on the DXCC List at the time of the change. In other words, criteria changes will not be applied retroactively to Entities on the List. |
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Kermit Lehman
And if you were lucky enough to be licensed in 2012 and interested in DX and DX history, you could work 100 countries from the original DXCC list and get a Diamond DXCC. I got one and it's one of my favorite awards.
It was fun to see how the world map has changed.
73,
Ken, AB1J -----Original Message-----
From: Gary Hinson <Gary@...> To: ARRL-Awards@... Sent: Tue, Feb 22, 2022 8:26 pm Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones" Getting back to the original question, the DXCC award scheme arose from a piece in QST by Clinton V DeSoto in the ‘30’s.
… See http://www.arrl.org/desoto for the rest of that excellent piece, and to appreciate the fundamental design of the DXCC award.
DoSoto eloquently discussed the issue of reaching consensus on what constitutes “a country”. He wrote: “The basic rule is simple and direct: Each discrete geographical or political entity is considered to be a country.” Ambiguities in that ‘simple and direct’ rule led eventually to today’s DXCC rules needing ~1900 words just to describe the criteria for qualifying ‘DXCC entities’ as they are now known (since ‘countries’ would be inappropriate for some of them e.g. UN HQ).
73
Gary ZL2iFB
PS In hope of avoiding yet another outbreak of “Entity X is impossible to work so it ought to be removed from the list”, I’ll just say that DXCC is designed to be a progressive award: while it takes effort to gain the basic award for contacting 100 entities, it is deliberately difficult to complete the full set. The ‘possibility’ of contacting entities has never been part of the DXCC rules, as far as I know. Therein lies the challenge, the accomplishment … and the fun.
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of HH Brakob
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 7:33 am To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential “new ones” Not to worry, Ria. I would have thought that the sheer outrageousness of my question would have signaled that “my tongue was in my cheek”.
Back under my rock.
73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2022 12:05:59 PM To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential “new ones” Can’t tell if you’re kidding or not.
These two areas are not UN member states nor are they recognized by the US state department.
Therefore they do not qualify as separate DXCC entities. Therefore the DXCC list remains unchanged for now. In the unlikely event that those two areas are recognized by the UN or US state department and they have an IARU member society, they’ll be added. But that’s as likely as me operating from P5.
73
Ria
N2RJ
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 1:03 PM HH Brakob <kzerohb@...> wrote:
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Yep, the “progressive changes” meander like an oxbow lake on a river, lol!
This is why I asked the original Q. DeSoto defined the concept as “country” which had both a common and operational meaning at the time. But subsequent tinkering with sidebars and ancillary adjustments (a reef with scaffolding?) have made a dogs breakfast out of the theory underlying the dxcc. Now, it’s the teleology of the concept: what the measurement (categories) is. IQ is what IQ tests measure. Or, alternatively, voltage is what the DMM registers instead of voltage is a concept to which the dmm is designed to measure. Grid squares are a very rational, consistent approach which delineates a known, unchanging geography. The latter appears to be a strategic element to these “progressive” changes as listed. Political change will occur…Kosovo, Crimea, volcano erupting, etc….more rapidly than physical change n land masses or reefs appearing. So let’s recognize the current dxcc for what it is: a meandering list of “entities” (the progressive term for DeSoto’s country?) that evolved to allow hams to reach a hundred of them. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But let’s don’t make it more than it is. 73, Frank K4FMH |
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Interesting:
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It reminds me that when I came to understand and learn about the current and deleted entities list, that there were like two deliniated zones during the First Gulf War, and that a prefix was given. Do not know how much time it was "active" and if any amateur operation did happen during that period. Take for example my prefix, WP3 and KP3 and NP3, which were given in 1978 to Serrana Bank and Roncador Cay, BUT, Colombia also made a claim on them and so in maps it appeared as KP3/HK0. Then on September 16, 1981, the U.S. "surrenders" it's claim, and the next day it becomes a Deleted Entity. Columbia kept them, but I assume it was annexed to Malpelo or San Andreas because even under Columbia it does not appear that Serrana and Roncador are still DXCC entities. Then in 1995, the KP3, NP3 and WP3 prefix passes to Puerto Rico. . . Now the question is, did any call from Serrana and Roncador using the KP3 prefix activated? I think not. I found on the internet a special KS4/ operation on the 70's which was the prefix before 1978. Also, it is nice to learn where your call came from. Cheers,
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You know how the TSA says we take every threat seriously… Ria N2RJ On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:16 PM HH Brakob <kzerohb@...> wrote:
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Frank,
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The concept of teleology, applied to DXCC, et.al. is an interesting one. DXCC was conceived in around 1936 by "Clint" Desoto and By Goodman (whom I have met). I wasn't on the "scene" DXing until 1957, but I have studied DXCC under "Professor" Jim Maxwell, and I am familiar with much of the literature. You might be interested in some of the history. Feel free to call any time. I'd like to hear more of your views. Wayne, N7NG -- 307-733-2670 Big Timber, Montana (most recently) On 2/23/2022 5:49 AM, Frank K4FMH wrote:
Yep, the “progressive changes” meander like an oxbow lake on a river, lol! |
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Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
Well said, Frank. Teleology it is: regardless of its origin, "the DXCC list" has meaning and value within the context of the DXCC award, and that's fine.
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Although the list's relationship to geography is not as direct as a scientific law (or gridsquares!), there is a general understanding or consensus that the list 'makes sense', overall. It is fit for its intended purpose - a DXer's challenge - as indicated by the number of participants and overall status and credibility of DXCC. The rules for what constitutes 'an entity' for the award have been defined, clarified and updated over time, causing the list to meander a little, with a few more dramatic turns here and there. However, both the rules and the list have gradually stabilised, along with the processes for considering and approving changes. DXCC is clearly a mature award scheme. Looking forward, various pressures will inevitably lead to further changes in the DXCC rules, the list and perhaps the governance arrangements, in order to stave off the award's decline, irrelevance and ultimate demise as long as possible. Currently, for example, we are facing issues relating to remote and unattended/automated operations, while rising sea levels are already affecting marginal land areas (substantial geographical changes over years/decades, not eons!). Border disputes rumble on as always, and keen DXpeditioners are always keen to find and activate 'new ones'. ARRL's IT appears to be a substantial constraint on change at the moment. Of all the changes and challenges facing DXCC, the creaking IT infrastructure stands out for me as a risk that needs to be addressed urgently. We're hungry for information, particularly around the IT recruitment and LoTW 2.0/Project-X. Despite being an optimist by nature, I fear no news is bad news: is Project X an ex-project? 73 Gary ZL2iFB -----Original Message-----
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Frank K4FMH Sent: Thursday, 24 February 2022 1:49 am To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones" Yep, the “progressive changes” meander like an oxbow lake on a river, lol! This is why I asked the original Q. DeSoto defined the concept as “country” which had both a common and operational meaning at the time. But subsequent tinkering with sidebars and ancillary adjustments (a reef with scaffolding?) have made a dogs breakfast out of the theory underlying the dxcc. Now, it’s the teleology of the concept: what the measurement (categories) is. IQ is what IQ tests measure. Or, alternatively, voltage is what the DMM registers instead of voltage is a concept to which the dmm is designed to measure. Grid squares are a very rational, consistent approach which delineates a known, unchanging geography. The latter appears to be a strategic element to these “progressive” changes as listed. Political change will occur…Kosovo, Crimea, volcano erupting, etc….more rapidly than physical change n land masses or reefs appearing. So let’s recognize the current dxcc for what it is: a meandering list of “entities” (the progressive term for DeSoto’s country?) that evolved to allow hams to reach a hundred of them. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But let’s don’t make it more than it is. 73, Frank K4FMH |
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Me? ¿¿A threat?? Are you serious?? I'm just a boy and his radio. I'll have to try to not look so threatening. 73, de Hans, KØHB “Just a Boy and his Radio”™ -- On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 4:33 PM Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
--
73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™ |
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You can thank the "genius folks" at arrl's board who overruled the DXAC and made "Scaffold Reef" a new entity...a joke and a black mark for DXCC
my two centavos...Neil N4FN |
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W0MU
BS7 BullS#$T rocks. On 2/24/2022 5:45 PM, Neil Foster
wrote:
You can thank the "genius folks" at arrl's board who overruled the DXAC and made "Scaffold Reef" a new entity...a joke and a black mark for DXCC |
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Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
I guess this was one of those decisions that came down to a specific interpretation of the rules.
I’m not really bothered by the decision itself so much as the decision process, and the curious governance arrangements with an ‘advisory committee’. Such arrangements don’t happen by chance. I wonder why it is the way it is?
BS7H is one of those curiosities that will resolve naturally as sea levels rise: perhaps the decision to allow it was simply to give folks the chance of a new one before time ran out for the reef.
73 Gary ZL2iFB
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of W0MU
Sent: Friday, 25 February 2022 1:50 pm To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones"
BS7 BullS#$T rocks. On 2/24/2022 5:45 PM, Neil Foster wrote:
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The Board with a majority vote can literally override anything. Some
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things like articles of association need a higher threshold. DXCC does not. There's really no way around this as it's pretty much how Boards operate. From what I recall, the DXAC was given a tasking for BS7, made their recommendation then another committee made another recommendation (to approve it) and thus BS7 was added to the list. More recently the PSC (Programs and Services Committee) have deferred decisions to the DXAC and CAC, takes their recommendation and full Board does not approve most things... but the DXCC rules will still have to be approved by the full Board due to its prominence. And to anyone that wants to shoot the messenger and lash out at me - I don't agree with some of this either but I have to go along with it. So don't take it out on me. Ria N2RJ On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 9:29 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
Hmmmm, I'm not so sure about that, Ria.
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In my experience, Boards are primarily responsible for corporate governance and the highest level of oversight, while the executives are responsible for management - a deliberate division. Boards wouldn't normally get too involved in operational issues such as this unless they were escalated due to unreconcilable problems within the management layers ... but as you say the prominence of DXCC may make it a strategic matter of concern to both the Board and the executive. The flak that has arisen from this and other DXCC decisions that arguably threatened ARRL's and DXCC's reputation could also be seen as symptomatic of a governance issue - or simply cock-ups, plain errors of judgment. Equally, some would doubtless favour and support all the decisions, and deny any damage was caused. This is all getting a bit heavy though. Down here on the Far Side, it's Friday afternoon and time for me to knock off for the weekend. 73 Gary ZL2iFB -----Original Message-----
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ Sent: Friday, 25 February 2022 3:43 pm To: ARRL-Awards@... Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Two potential "new ones" The Board with a majority vote can literally override anything. Some things like articles of association need a higher threshold. DXCC does not. There's really no way around this as it's pretty much how Boards operate. From what I recall, the DXAC was given a tasking for BS7, made their recommendation then another committee made another recommendation (to approve it) and thus BS7 was added to the list. More recently the PSC (Programs and Services Committee) have deferred decisions to the DXAC and CAC, takes their recommendation and full Board does not approve most things... but the DXCC rules will still have to be approved by the full Board due to its prominence. And to anyone that wants to shoot the messenger and lash out at me - I don't agree with some of this either but I have to go along with it. So don't take it out on me. Ria N2RJ On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 9:29 PM Gary Hinson <Gary@...> wrote:
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Dave AA6YQ
The Board with a majority vote can literally override anything. Some things like articles of association need a higher threshold. DXCC does not. There's really no way around this as it's pretty much how Boards operate.
+ If a Board must override a recommendation made by a Committee to which it delegated responsibility, it is axiomatic that the Board and Committee are not aligned - a condition that should immediately be corrected. + After the Board approved BS7, did it task someone to bring the PSC into alignment? If so, what explanation for the misalignment was reported, and how was the misalignment corrected? de AA6YQ |
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