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Self Printed QSLs for DXCC: an idea

Gerry Hull
 

Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Gilbert Baron
 

There are programs like Digisign that encrypt a signature and the are even accepted by sellers and government. This could be used to email a card and should be more than enough, even harder to forge than a real QSL postcard. This could be used but wonder with LoTW available to all why it is needed is another question. It still would be a neat way to sed a valid QSL like we used to get in the kai;.

 

Outlook LT Gil W0MN

Hierro Candente Batir de Repente

44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb

 

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Gerry Hull
Sent: 18 January 2023 09:11
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: [ARRL-Awards] Self Printed QSLs for DXCC: an idea

 

Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Ria, N2RJ
 

It seems like a good idea, except that I don't see what it would do that LoTW would do apart from avoiding having to pay per QSO fees for LoTW. (playing devil's advocate here).

Ria
N2RJ

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:10 AM Gerry Hull <gerry@...> wrote:
Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Russ Kinner
 

Many stations who object to using LotW is because of
the hassle in setting it up. It did take a week for me waiting for the postcard, minor but an annoyance. DX stations may have more difficulty although most do have the needed online access to email copies of documents.
It does seem more complex than needed but that horse has been beat many times. Short of a total redesign, we have a system that is old and slow, but prevents some faking of contacts.
All I know is that I have countries that confirmed on QRZ but aren't dealing with LotW so DXCC is just a bit harder to get (Nicaragua, anyone).

Rusty, WA8ZID



On January 18, 2023, at 09:41, "Ria, N2RJ" <rjairam@...> wrote:


It seems like a good idea, except that I don't see what it would do that LoTW would do apart from avoiding having to pay per QSO fees for LoTW. (playing devil's advocate here).

Ria
N2RJ

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:10 AM Gerry Hull <gerry@...> wrote:
Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Ria, N2RJ
 

Ok, so if that’s the case, would they be opposed to paying the same fee as if the QSO were on LoTW and used for awards credit? 

Or paying a subscription fee above annual ARRL dues to be able to do this? 

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:03 PM Russ Kinner <wizardofzid@...> wrote:

Many stations who object to using LotW is because of
the hassle in setting it up. It did take a week for me waiting for the postcard, minor but an annoyance. DX stations may have more difficulty although most do have the needed online access to email copies of documents.
It does seem more complex than needed but that horse has been beat many times. Short of a total redesign, we have a system that is old and slow, but prevents some faking of contacts.
All I know is that I have countries that confirmed on QRZ but aren't dealing with LotW so DXCC is just a bit harder to get (Nicaragua, anyone).

Rusty, WA8ZID



On January 18, 2023, at 09:41, "Ria, N2RJ" <rjairam@...> wrote:


It seems like a good idea, except that I don't see what it would do that LoTW would do apart from avoiding having to pay per QSO fees for LoTW. (playing devil's advocate here).

Ria
N2RJ

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:10 AM Gerry Hull <gerry@...> wrote:
Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Russ Kinner
 

I believed the LotW system is all to prevent fake contacts. I'd certainly be happy to pay the same fee for credit but I see no one in the LotW system accepting anything except via the present system (LotW online or card checker).
Most DXpeditions get some fee for a card and that often includes LotW via Clublog so that seems to work for DXCC credit.

Its the independent station in a country where LotW is not worth it to them and they often only use snail mail. It might also be that they have limited Internet access. The only contact I have in Mongolia probably fits in that category. If I'm in demand as DX and LotW really doesn't offer anything of value, why bother with sending in copies of my license and some utility bill or other government document. Its small but significant privacy risk and in some places the risk is not worth it.

QRZ is the simplest system to use and is immediate registration for most stations but a significant part of the system is on an honor system. However, I'm sure there are some fake stations in the DB. LotW does address that but doesn't offer immediate logging. Its taken 6-8 hours sometimes while QRZ is a few seconds.

Balancing the integrity of DXCC and other awards vs. simplicity and immediate response is where you and the other Directors will ultimately decide. You can pull it towards simple or towards secure. I don't have any obvious answer.

Rusty



On January 18, 2023, at 10:11, "Ria, N2RJ" <rjairam@...> wrote:


Ok, so if that’s the case, would they be opposed to paying the same fee as if the QSO were on LoTW and used for awards credit? 

Or paying a subscription fee above annual ARRL dues to be able to do this? 

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 12:03 PM Russ Kinner <wizardofzid@...> wrote:

Many stations who object to using LotW is because of
the hassle in setting it up. It did take a week for me waiting for the postcard, minor but an annoyance. DX stations may have more difficulty although most do have the needed online access to email copies of documents.
It does seem more complex than needed but that horse has been beat many times. Short of a total redesign, we have a system that is old and slow, but prevents some faking of contacts.
All I know is that I have countries that confirmed on QRZ but aren't dealing with LotW so DXCC is just a bit harder to get (Nicaragua, anyone).

Rusty, WA8ZID



On January 18, 2023, at 09:41, "Ria, N2RJ" <rjairam@...> wrote:


It seems like a good idea, except that I don't see what it would do that LoTW would do apart from avoiding having to pay per QSO fees for LoTW. (playing devil's advocate here).

Ria
N2RJ

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:10 AM Gerry Hull <gerry@...> wrote:
Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
HH Brakob
 

Follow the money.

73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 10:40:53 AM
To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...>
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Self Printed QSLs for DXCC: an idea
 
It seems like a good idea, except that I don't see what it would do that LoTW would do apart from avoiding having to pay per QSO fees for LoTW. (playing devil's advocate here).

Ria
N2RJ

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:10 AM Gerry Hull <gerry@...> wrote:
Currently, self-printed QSLs (stations send you an image that you print yourself) are a not acceptable for DXCC credit.

There is a technical, and easy, solution to solve this:  place a QR code on the QSL, which contains a LoTW-key-encrypted QSO.  An example graphic is shown (ignore the code itself, just an example.)
If such a self-printed card was sent to the DXCC desk, it could be verified easily.

Thoughts?

73,

Gerry W1VE
Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

Balancing the integrity of DXCC and other awards vs. simplicity and immediate response is where you and the other Directors will ultimately decide. You can pull it towards simple or towards secure. I don't have any obvious answer.

+ LoTW is difficult to use because a well-meaning but naïve ARRL management were convinced in 2001 that one developer could implement, test, and document LoTW in 9 months. To limit the schedule slip to a couple of years, that developer threw everything overboard that he didn't consider essential -- like testing, documentation, and a user interface that hide the implementation details and security mechanism from users. For example, there's no reason for users to be aware of - much less have to manage - Callsign Certificates. An international online confirmation mechanism that can't be localized to languages other than English is absurd.

+ In 2013, the ARRL Board approved the hiring of two software engineers to improve LoTW's availability, reliability, and usability. Good progress was made against the first two, but in 2017, those engineers were re-assigned to other projects - one of which failed outright, and the other of which now makes it possible to "renew, purchase, and donate in a single transaction". As a result, there have been no subsequent improvements to LoTW's usability or functionality in more than 5 years.

+ A "total redesign" of LoTW would require ARRL staff to support the current implementation for years while designing, implementing, testing, and documenting its replacement; this would be a challenging project for an organization well-skilled in modern software engineering; an organization that took four years to roll out a commercially-supplied software package (Personify) and then failed to realize that its password rules were inconsistent with those of the system it replaced has little hope of succeeding.

+ The better approach: design a modern new user interface that can be localized by volunteers, and deploy it incrementally in the current implementation of LoTW, soliciting user feedback as each new section is rolled out and making course corrections based on that feedback. Re-hosting the LoTW Server to the cloud for access to additional computing resources during peak periods (like after popular contests) would be a reasonable "next step" after the usability issues have been eliminated.

73,

Dave, AA6QY (member ARRL LoTW Committee, 2012-2017(
Steven Lott Smith KG5VK ARRL NTX SM
 

Embrace the strengths that are available in the current system (LOTW)
and hire experts in the field to add new state of the art technology to the platform.

Soliciting experts and then requiring them to move to Newington does not yield the 
best person for the job, the genuine experts and talented people will not apply for the job.

I am sure that even the IT team now at headquarters is being undermined and Multi tasked
through micro management and limits placed on them as to what they can and can not do,
while overwhelming them with other tasks outside of their job description.

Experts need given a Mission Goal and left alone to accomplish it
not assigned a cubical and told each and every step to take and what they can not do.

Good managers hire great talent, let those talented people do their job,
praise/reward them for each milestone they have made.

This would lead to Mission success!

Better Tools for our Members will lead to more members joining our ranks

Just my opinion

Steve
KG5VK
Gilbert Baron
 

Yes, but holding my breath? , NOT SO MUCH.

 

Outlook LT Gil W0MN

Hierro Candente Batir de Repente

44.08226 N 92.51265 W EN34rb

 

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Steven Lott Smith KG5VK ARRL NTX SM
Sent: 19 January 2023 07:22
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Self Printed QSLs for DXCC: an idea

 

Embrace the strengths that are available in the current system (LOTW)
and hire experts in the field to add new state of the art technology to the platform.

Soliciting experts and then requiring them to move to Newington does not yield the 
best person for the job, the genuine experts and talented people will not apply for the job.

I am sure that even the IT team now at headquarters is being undermined and Multi tasked
through micro management and limits placed on them as to what they can and can not do,
while overwhelming them with other tasks outside of their job description.

Experts need given a Mission Goal and left alone to accomplish it
not assigned a cubical and told each and every step to take and what they can not do.

Good managers hire great talent, let those talented people do their job,
praise/reward them for each milestone they have made.

This would lead to Mission success!

Better Tools for our Members will lead to more members joining our ranks

Just my opinion

Steve
KG5VK
Chuck Milam
 

As a long-time IT guy, I will chime in here to say the KG5VK and AA6YQ get it.

The formula for success is simple, but humans have a tough time staying out of their own way:
  • Find people that are passionate about architecting and engineering elegant, solid infrastructure solutions.
  • Understand the concepts of DevSecOps, most of which are derived from proven manufacturing philosophies such as Lean and the Theory of Constraints.
  • Ensure they understand the Three Ways: https://itrevolution.com/articles/the-three-ways-principles-underpinning-devops/ 
  • Be comfortable with open-source project-style distributed workflows using git-based tools for collaboration and accountability.
  • Recognize that the best people for the job can come from all time zones and the best team may be a mix of volunteers and paid staff. 
  • Let them work when and where they work best, and most importantly, don't get in their way. 
  • Don't bog them down with antiquated governance concepts designed to maintain the status quo rather than ensure actual quality, reliability, and security.
73,

Chuck Milam, N9KY




On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 7:21 AM Steven Lott Smith KG5VK ARRL NTX SM <lottsphoto@...> wrote:

Embrace the strengths that are available in the current system (LOTW)
and hire experts in the field to add new state of the art technology to the platform.

Soliciting experts and then requiring them to move to Newington does not yield the 
best person for the job, the genuine experts and talented people will not apply for the job.

I am sure that even the IT team now at headquarters is being undermined and Multi tasked
through micro management and limits placed on them as to what they can and can not do,
while overwhelming them with other tasks outside of their job description.

Experts need given a Mission Goal and left alone to accomplish it
not assigned a cubical and told each and every step to take and what they can not do.

Good managers hire great talent, let those talented people do their job,
praise/reward them for each milestone they have made.

This would lead to Mission success!

Better Tools for our Members will lead to more members joining our ranks

Just my opinion

Steve
KG5VK
Gerry Hull
 

There are many hams who don't want to use LoTW; they bring their cards to a card checker of send them to the DXCC desk.
The idea is simple: A station, who is a LoTW participant, would be able to generate images that would have an encrypted, validated QSO in the imag via a QR Code.

Imagine I am an LoTW user, and I make a few hundred QSOs on a DXCation trip.  Yeah, I can simply upload, but lots of people want a visual QSL!
This would solve that problem.  

Doesn't a tq8 file has everything it needs to validate a qso (via the LoTW infrastructure?

This is not about revenue streams for the league, nor is it about past implementation pitfals or stragies for re-implementing the entire system.

I'm not trying to boil the ocean -- I'm just free-thinking an idea that might -- emphasis might -- have a simple solution.

Gerry W1VE
Steven Lott Smith KG5VK ARRL NTX SM
 

Gerry

First off apologies for basically joining in with others on Hijacking your thread

As to your idea, Try it and see if it gains momentum
It could become the next best thing to sliced bread

Cheers!
Steve
KG5VK
Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

Embrace the strengths that are available in the current system (LOTW) and hire experts in the field to add new state of the art technology to the platform.

Soliciting experts and then requiring them to move to Newington does not yield the best person for the job, the genuine experts and talented people will not apply for the job.

+ Assembling and leading a remote software development team is 10X more challenging than leading a local team.

+ The ARRL attempted to outsource the re-implementation of its aging DXCC system; the project failed. The ARRL then tried to re-implement the DXCC system using local resources; that project failed too.

I am sure that even the IT team now at headquarters is being undermined and Multi tasked through micro management and limits placed on them as to what they can and can not do, while overwhelming them with other tasks outside of their job description.

+ I did not see much of that during the ~5 years I was helping the LoTW team. The Board did require the team to support NPOTA and Centennial, which delayed the effort to improve the LoTW Server's reliability and availability, but both were popular on-air activities that provided insight into possible business models for LoTW. One or two Directors attempted to make idiosyncratic changes to LoTW policies, but by then the team had a spine.

Experts need given a Mission Goal and left alone to accomplish it not assigned a cubical and told each and every step to take and what they can not do.

+ Unless there is alignment among all stakeholders, significant software projects generally fail. The biggest risks facing a project must be identified and attacked in the earliest iterations so that course corrections can be made without having to rip up a lot of already-laid track.

de AA6YQ

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