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Hans Brakob
I just learned that when you make application for the DXCC Challenge award on LoTW, the payment you make includes no tangible paper certificate.
Instead of a paper certificate, for your payment you get a nice asterisk on the internet.
I’ve encouraged my Division Director to initiate corrective action.
73, de Hans, KØHB
-- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running total of that for current entities.
Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
73 Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote:
I just learned that when you make application for the DXCC Challenge award on LoTW, the payment you make includes no tangible paper certificate.
Instead of a paper certificate, for your payment you get a nice asterisk on the internet.
I’ve encouraged my Division Director to initiate corrective action.
73, de Hans, KØHB
--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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When I qualified for the Challenge I decided against the plaque: expensive and no one would ever see it but me. Still, a paper certificate would be nice to put in my ham radio scrapbook. Could be downloadable. That's cheap & easy.
A larger size certificate by mail would be better at a reasonable to fee.
73,
Ken, AB1J
-----Original Message-----
From: Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...>
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2021 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] DXCC Challenge Award
There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running total of that for current entities.
Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
73
Ria
N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote:
I just learned that when you make application for the DXCC Challenge award on LoTW, the payment you make includes no tangible paper certificate.
Instead of a paper certificate, for your payment you get a nice asterisk on the internet.
I’ve encouraged my Division Director to initiate corrective action.
73, de Hans, KØHB
--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque is pretty
nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these awards that
could be emailed or downloaded. But this would take away from the
model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well and offer
their awards for free that you simply download and they are quite
nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing technologies?
This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at
> additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
>
> There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re
> adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running
> total of that for current entities.
>
> Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would
> certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
>
> 73 Ria N2RJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...
> <mailto:hbrakob@...>
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Ria, N2RJ
I doubt DXCC would see downloadable certificates. To me it cheapens the award. Many share this opinion. I’ve asked about it.
Paper printed certificates, maybe. PSC would consider it and the board would have to approve as it would be an amendment to the DXCC rules. Then they would be printed etc.
If enough people are interested write your director and we can ask PSC to put it on the agenda.
73 Ria N2RJ
When I qualified for the Challenge I decided against the plaque: expensive and no one would ever see it but me. Still, a paper certificate would be nice to put in my ham radio scrapbook. Could be downloadable. That's cheap & easy.
A larger size certificate by mail would be better at a reasonable to fee.
73,
Ken, AB1J
-----Original Message-----
From: Ria, N2RJ < rjairam@...>
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2021 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] DXCC Challenge Award
There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running total of that for current entities.
Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
73
Ria
N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote:
I just learned that when you make application for the DXCC Challenge award on LoTW, the payment you make includes no tangible paper certificate.
Instead of a paper certificate, for your payment you get a nice asterisk on the internet.
I’ve encouraged my Division Director to initiate corrective action.
73, de Hans, KØHB
--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue. It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s about the business model and prestige of the award.
There are many many PDF certificates but even though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they are very rare.
Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32 PM W0MU < w0mu@...> wrote:
You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque is pretty
nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these awards that
could be emailed or downloaded. But this would take away from the
model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well and offer
their awards for free that you simply download and they are quite
nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing technologies?
This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at
> additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
>
> There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re
> adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running
> total of that for current entities.
>
> Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would
> certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
>
> 73 Ria N2RJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...
> <mailto:hbrakob@...>
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I am unclear what prestige
there is on a printed certificate printed by an ARRL sourced
supplier or on my color laser printer. Why not offer both? I
would hope that the ARRL printed and mailed award would be nicer
than a "free" PDF file. It is not like people can sell or trade
their certificates and move up in the official rankings.
Not everyone shares the same views so what is important so some is
not to others. The only awards I usually have up are plaques. I
have piles of printed award still in tubes or in piles that I have
no room for.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:36 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue.
It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s
about the business model and prestige of the award.
There are many many PDF certificates but even
though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically
are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they
are very rare.
Ria
N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32
PM W0MU < w0mu@...> wrote:
You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque
is pretty nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these
awards that could be emailed or downloaded. But this
would take away from the model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well
and offer their awards for free that you simply download
and they are quite nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing
technologies? This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at
> additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
>
> There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re
> adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running
> total of that for current entities.
>
> Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would
> certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
>
> 73 Ria N2RJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...
> <mailto:hbrakob@...>
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Hans Brakob
Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no paper certificate for challenge.” That is factually accurate, as I stated in my opening message. Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no application specifically for challenge either.” That is NOT factually accurate. On January 26th of this year I made such an application, and paid $22.34 to qualify for the 1,000 confirmation mark. (screen clip below) 
Since then I have gained another 7 Challenge “counters”, and could (if I wished) make another application, strictly for “Challenge” credit. This is exactly the form which I used to apply for the Challenge. From this view, the Challenge application looks like any other DXCC application, and a reasonable person would expect (just like other applications) that a paper certificate would result. (screen clip below) 
In 1969 I moved from the islands to the mainland, my DXCC award was “zeroed out” and I started all over with a blank DXCC account. It was a long haul, but over the next 51 years K0CKB and I raised our young family, I retired from a military career, finished college while working nights, served a couple tours as Dakota Division Vice Director, retired from a second career in telecommunications product development, and worked some DX from time-to-time. About a month ago I finally checked the last LOTW box needed to muster up 1,000 confirmed QSO’s, made my application for the “DXCC Challenge” award, paid the necessary $22.34, and sat back waiting for a nicely rolled up Certificate in a cardboard tube, just like the many rolled up Certificates in a cardboard tube that the DXCC desk has mailed me going way back to 1968 when I got my first DXCC at KG6AQI. And I waited some more, understanding COVID and all that it means in terms of remote working staff and other unavoidable delays. Then I groused a bit on a reflector. I’m a wallpaper guy….. where’s my new wallpaper. Today I learned that this award, the hardest one I ever worked for, does not rate a paper certificate. After 51 years, my work and $23.34 gains me an electronic asterisk on an obscure internet web page. (See below) This award is arguably the most difficult award that the “tribander and wires” casual amateur can aspire to earn. It is certainly more difficult than 5BDXCC, Triple Play, or WAZ, all of which offer handsome paper certificates. But to display any tangible evidence of earning this award (beyond a $22.34 electronic asterisk), ARRL “offers” to extract almost another $100 bill for a plaque. I’m sure it’s a nice plaque, much nicer than the asterisk on a web page, but $97.00 isn’t trivial money to an old retired guy. K0CKB keeps a close eye on my PayPal account, and $97.00 plus shipping and other fees, will not be an acceptable expenditure for “an award to hang on the wall”. I have asked Director Lippert to please initiate the creation of a paper certificate suitable for the difficult accomplishment of this 51 year quest. Perhaps Director Jairam will second the motion. And as long as you’re at it, pass one around to all the others who earned and paid for one. 73, de Hans, K0HB PS: It’s a very nice asterisk, by the way.  -- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Hans Brakob
Ria, N2RJ wrote: I doubt DXCC would see downloadable certificates. In my mind the only difference would be the location of the printer, and perhaps the thickness of the paper. Ria, N2RJ wrote: To me it cheapens the award. If you mean “Makes it more economical to ARRL members”, of course you’d be correct. -- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
Hans, it’s in the rules (rule 1(s) specifically). That’s about as factual as it can be. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, but the rules say there is no certificate.
If you want to change that, ask. But saying it’s an “error” is not factual. It doesn’t exist.
73 Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:20 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote: Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no paper certificate for challenge.” That is factually accurate, as I stated in my opening message. Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no application specifically for challenge either.” That is NOT factually accurate. On January 26th of this year I made such an application, and paid $22.34 to qualify for the 1,000 confirmation mark. (screen clip below) 
Since then I have gained another 7 Challenge “counters”, and could (if I wished) make another application, strictly for “Challenge” credit. This is exactly the form which I used to apply for the Challenge. From this view, the Challenge application looks like any other DXCC application, and a reasonable person would expect (just like other applications) that a paper certificate would result. (screen clip below) 
In 1969 I moved from the islands to the mainland, my DXCC award was “zeroed out” and I started all over with a blank DXCC account. It was a long haul, but over the next 51 years K0CKB and I raised our young family, I retired from a military career, finished college while working nights, served a couple tours as Dakota Division Vice Director, retired from a second career in telecommunications product development, and worked some DX from time-to-time. About a month ago I finally checked the last LOTW box needed to muster up 1,000 confirmed QSO’s, made my application for the “DXCC Challenge” award, paid the necessary $22.34, and sat back waiting for a nicely rolled up Certificate in a cardboard tube, just like the many rolled up Certificates in a cardboard tube that the DXCC desk has mailed me going way back to 1968 when I got my first DXCC at KG6AQI. And I waited some more, understanding COVID and all that it means in terms of remote working staff and other unavoidable delays. Then I groused a bit on a reflector. I’m a wallpaper guy….. where’s my new wallpaper. Today I learned that this award, the hardest one I ever worked for, does not rate a paper certificate. After 51 years, my work and $23.34 gains me an electronic asterisk on an obscure internet web page. (See below) This award is arguably the most difficult award that the “tribander and wires” casual amateur can aspire to earn. It is certainly more difficult than 5BDXCC, Triple Play, or WAZ, all of which offer handsome paper certificates. But to display any tangible evidence of earning this award (beyond a $22.34 electronic asterisk), ARRL “offers” to extract almost another $100 bill for a plaque. I’m sure it’s a nice plaque, much nicer than the asterisk on a web page, but $97.00 isn’t trivial money to an old retired guy. K0CKB keeps a close eye on my PayPal account, and $97.00 plus shipping and other fees, will not be an acceptable expenditure for “an award to hang on the wall”. I have asked Director Lippert to please initiate the creation of a paper certificate suitable for the difficult accomplishment of this 51 year quest. Perhaps Director Jairam will second the motion. And as long as you’re at it, pass one around to all the others who earned and paid for one. 73, de Hans, K0HB PS: It’s a very nice asterisk, by the way.  -- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
Location, size, design. Stickers and seals also add an element of authenticity.
There’s also a revenue element. Awards processing and staff time isn’t free and the certificate fee certainly helps defray that.
Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:31 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote: Ria, N2RJ wrote: I doubt DXCC would see downloadable certificates. In my mind the only difference would be the location of the printer, and perhaps the thickness of the paper. Ria, N2RJ wrote: To me it cheapens the award. If you mean “Makes it more economical to ARRL members”, of course you’d be correct. -- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
Does your laser printer handle the larger size paper? Most of them only go to 8.5x14.
Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:46 PM W0MU < w0mu@...> wrote:
I am unclear what prestige
there is on a printed certificate printed by an ARRL sourced
supplier or on my color laser printer. Why not offer both? I
would hope that the ARRL printed and mailed award would be nicer
than a "free" PDF file. It is not like people can sell or trade
their certificates and move up in the official rankings.
Not everyone shares the same views so what is important so some is
not to others. The only awards I usually have up are plaques. I
have piles of printed award still in tubes or in piles that I have
no room for.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:36 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue.
It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s
about the business model and prestige of the award.
There are many many PDF certificates but even
though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically
are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they
are very rare.
Ria
N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32
PM W0MU < w0mu@...> wrote:
You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque
is pretty nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these
awards that could be emailed or downloaded. But this
would take away from the model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well
and offer their awards for free that you simply download
and they are quite nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing
technologies? This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at
> additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
>
> There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re
> adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running
> total of that for current entities.
>
> Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would
> certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
>
> 73 Ria N2RJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...
> <mailto:hbrakob@...>
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Hans Brakob
One of my other hobbies is photography. I can print “archive grade” (won’t fade for 200 years) on a variety of paper types, in sizes up to 13” x 19”. Mind you, I am not lobbying for print-your-own. The fees charged by ARRL for paper certificates seems reasonable to me. HB
From: Ria, N2RJSent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 19:00 To: ARRL-Awards@...Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] DXCC Challenge Award Does your laser printer handle the larger size paper? Most of them only go to 8.5x14. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:46 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote: I am unclear what prestige there is on a printed certificate printed by an ARRL sourced supplier or on my color laser printer. Why not offer both? I would hope that the ARRL printed and mailed award would be nicer than a "free" PDF file. It is not like people can sell or trade their certificates and move up in the official rankings.
Not everyone shares the same views so what is important so some is not to others. The only awards I usually have up are plaques. I have piles of printed award still in tubes or in piles that I have no room for.
W0MU On 3/3/2021 10:36 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote: You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue. It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s about the business model and prestige of the award. There are many many PDF certificates but even though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they are very rare. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote: You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque is pretty nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these awards that could be emailed or downloaded. But this would take away from the model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well and offer their awards for free that you simply download and they are quite nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing technologies? This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at > additional cost. Additional levels have medallions. > > There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re > adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running > total of that for current entities. > > Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would > certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program. > > 73 Ria N2RJ > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@... > <mailto:hbrakob@...>
-- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Hans Brakob
We both agree, from the beginning of this conversation (“conversation” does not directly translate to “argue”), that there is no certificate. We both agree “that’s a fact”. But your statement “There is no application specifically for challenge either” doesn’t hold water. The ARRL LoTW web page has the facility to submit such an application. I submitted an application and paid a fee to do so. That fact belies your “no application” assertion. So now I’m not sure what I paid for – nothing, I guess. I started this conversation (and also wrote my Director) to lobby for inclusion of a paper Certificate. Please don’t use my request as a platform denying the existence of the certificate – I’ve known that for a couple of days now.
From: Ria, N2RJSent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 18:53 To: ARRL-Awards@...Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] DXCC Challenge Award Hans, it’s in the rules (rule 1(s) specifically). That’s about as factual as it can be. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, but the rules say there is no certificate. If you want to change that, ask. But saying it’s an “error” is not factual. It doesn’t exist. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:20 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...> wrote: Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no paper certificate for challenge.” That is factually accurate, as I stated in my opening message. Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no application specifically for challenge either.” That is NOT factually accurate. On January 26th of this year I made such an application, and paid $22.34 to qualify for the 1,000 confirmation mark. (screen clip below) 
Since then I have gained another 7 Challenge “counters”, and could (if I wished) make another application, strictly for “Challenge” credit. This is exactly the form which I used to apply for the Challenge. From this view, the Challenge application looks like any other DXCC application, and a reasonable person would expect (just like other applications) that a paper certificate would result. (screen clip below) 
In 1969 I moved from the islands to the mainland, my DXCC award was “zeroed out” and I started all over with a blank DXCC account. It was a long haul, but over the next 51 years K0CKB and I raised our young family, I retired from a military career, finished college while working nights, served a couple tours as Dakota Division Vice Director, retired from a second career in telecommunications product development, and worked some DX from time-to-time. About a month ago I finally checked the last LOTW box needed to muster up 1,000 confirmed QSO’s, made my application for the “DXCC Challenge” award, paid the necessary $22.34, and sat back waiting for a nicely rolled up Certificate in a cardboard tube, just like the many rolled up Certificates in a cardboard tube that the DXCC desk has mailed me going way back to 1968 when I got my first DXCC at KG6AQI. And I waited some more, understanding COVID and all that it means in terms of remote working staff and other unavoidable delays. Then I groused a bit on a reflector. I’m a wallpaper guy….. where’s my new wallpaper. Today I learned that this award, the hardest one I ever worked for, does not rate a paper certificate. After 51 years, my work and $23.34 gains me an electronic asterisk on an obscure internet web page. (See below) This award is arguably the most difficult award that the “tribander and wires” casual amateur can aspire to earn. It is certainly more difficult than 5BDXCC, Triple Play, or WAZ, all of which offer handsome paper certificates. But to display any tangible evidence of earning this award (beyond a $22.34 electronic asterisk), ARRL “offers” to extract almost another $100 bill for a plaque. I’m sure it’s a nice plaque, much nicer than the asterisk on a web page, but $97.00 isn’t trivial money to an old retired guy. K0CKB keeps a close eye on my PayPal account, and $97.00 plus shipping and other fees, will not be an acceptable expenditure for “an award to hang on the wall”. I have asked Director Lippert to please initiate the creation of a paper certificate suitable for the difficult accomplishment of this 51 year quest. Perhaps Director Jairam will second the motion. And as long as you’re at it, pass one around to all the others who earned and paid for one. 73, de Hans, K0HB PS: It’s a very nice asterisk, by the way. 
--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
-- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
I’m a professional photographer and video producer (and drone pilot, but I digress). I generally outsource my prints as they do better quality.
I think the certificate idea for challenge has merit, to be honest. But there may be some historical component as to why it was a plaque only. But we will see.
73 Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 2:05 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote: One of my other hobbies is photography. I can print “archive grade” (won’t fade for 200 years) on a variety of paper types, in sizes up to 13” x 19”. Mind you, I am not lobbying for print-your-own. The fees charged by ARRL for paper certificates seems reasonable to me. HB Does your laser printer handle the larger size paper? Most of them only go to 8.5x14. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:46 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote: I am unclear what prestige there is on a printed certificate printed by an ARRL sourced supplier or on my color laser printer. Why not offer both? I would hope that the ARRL printed and mailed award would be nicer than a "free" PDF file. It is not like people can sell or trade their certificates and move up in the official rankings.
Not everyone shares the same views so what is important so some is not to others. The only awards I usually have up are plaques. I have piles of printed award still in tubes or in piles that I have no room for.
W0MU On 3/3/2021 10:36 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote: You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue. It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s about the business model and prestige of the award. There are many many PDF certificates but even though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they are very rare. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote: You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque is pretty nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these awards that could be emailed or downloaded. But this would take away from the model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well and offer their awards for free that you simply download and they are quite nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing technologies? This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at > additional cost. Additional levels have medallions. > > There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re > adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running > total of that for current entities. > > Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would > certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program. > > 73 Ria N2RJ > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@... > <mailto:hbrakob@...>
-- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Ria, N2RJ
There’s no application for challenge. It’s automatic. You’ll be issued a challenge award (or rather, status) once you qualify. This is unlike single band awards which aren’t automatic. You don’t get those unless you apply.
You can technically apply for credits specifically for the purpose of obtaining DXCC challenge but there is no opt out of being placed on the challenge roster.
For years I was on challenge and despite having that asterisk I did not have the asterisk for any of the single band awards. I did nothing else other than submit LoTW credits for my regular DXCC award.
Ria N2RJ
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 2:15 PM Hans Brakob < hbrakob@...> wrote: We both agree, from the beginning of this conversation (“conversation” does not directly translate to “argue”), that there is no certificate. We both agree “that’s a fact”. But your statement “There is no application specifically for challenge either” doesn’t hold water. The ARRL LoTW web page has the facility to submit such an application. I submitted an application and paid a fee to do so. That fact belies your “no application” assertion. So now I’m not sure what I paid for – nothing, I guess. I started this conversation (and also wrote my Director) to lobby for inclusion of a paper Certificate. Please don’t use my request as a platform denying the existence of the certificate – I’ve known that for a couple of days now. Hans, it’s in the rules (rule 1(s) specifically). That’s about as factual as it can be. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, but the rules say there is no certificate. If you want to change that, ask. But saying it’s an “error” is not factual. It doesn’t exist. On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 1:20 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...> wrote: Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no paper certificate for challenge.” That is factually accurate, as I stated in my opening message. Ria, N2RJ writes: “There is no application specifically for challenge either.” That is NOT factually accurate. On January 26th of this year I made such an application, and paid $22.34 to qualify for the 1,000 confirmation mark. (screen clip below) 
Since then I have gained another 7 Challenge “counters”, and could (if I wished) make another application, strictly for “Challenge” credit. This is exactly the form which I used to apply for the Challenge. From this view, the Challenge application looks like any other DXCC application, and a reasonable person would expect (just like other applications) that a paper certificate would result. (screen clip below) 
In 1969 I moved from the islands to the mainland, my DXCC award was “zeroed out” and I started all over with a blank DXCC account. It was a long haul, but over the next 51 years K0CKB and I raised our young family, I retired from a military career, finished college while working nights, served a couple tours as Dakota Division Vice Director, retired from a second career in telecommunications product development, and worked some DX from time-to-time. About a month ago I finally checked the last LOTW box needed to muster up 1,000 confirmed QSO’s, made my application for the “DXCC Challenge” award, paid the necessary $22.34, and sat back waiting for a nicely rolled up Certificate in a cardboard tube, just like the many rolled up Certificates in a cardboard tube that the DXCC desk has mailed me going way back to 1968 when I got my first DXCC at KG6AQI. And I waited some more, understanding COVID and all that it means in terms of remote working staff and other unavoidable delays. Then I groused a bit on a reflector. I’m a wallpaper guy….. where’s my new wallpaper. Today I learned that this award, the hardest one I ever worked for, does not rate a paper certificate. After 51 years, my work and $23.34 gains me an electronic asterisk on an obscure internet web page. (See below) This award is arguably the most difficult award that the “tribander and wires” casual amateur can aspire to earn. It is certainly more difficult than 5BDXCC, Triple Play, or WAZ, all of which offer handsome paper certificates. But to display any tangible evidence of earning this award (beyond a $22.34 electronic asterisk), ARRL “offers” to extract almost another $100 bill for a plaque. I’m sure it’s a nice plaque, much nicer than the asterisk on a web page, but $97.00 isn’t trivial money to an old retired guy. K0CKB keeps a close eye on my PayPal account, and $97.00 plus shipping and other fees, will not be an acceptable expenditure for “an award to hang on the wall”. I have asked Director Lippert to please initiate the creation of a paper certificate suitable for the difficult accomplishment of this 51 year quest. Perhaps Director Jairam will second the motion. And as long as you’re at it, pass one around to all the others who earned and paid for one. 73, de Hans, K0HB PS: It’s a very nice asterisk, by the way. 
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73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
-- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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You are paying to support LOTW. The Challenge has nothing to do with it. On the other hand the Challenge plaque is quite nice and endorsable with medallions as you climb the ladder
On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:36 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
You hit on it. It would take away awards revenue. It would also cheapen the award. It’s not about technology, it’s about the business model and prestige of the award.
There are many many PDF certificates but even though I have tons of them, only the ones that I got physically are on display. There are a few rare ones I print out but they are very rare.
Ria N2RJ On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:32 PM W0MU < w0mu@...> wrote:
You are just paying for the LOTW credits. The plaque is pretty
nice.
Maybe they could look at PDF awards for some of these awards that
could be emailed or downloaded. But this would take away from the
model of selling awards.
Programs like FT8DMC and POTA seem to function very well and offer
their awards for free that you simply download and they are quite
nice.
Why is the ARRL always so slow to adapt to changing technologies?
This is 2021 not 1971.
W0MU
On 3/3/2021 10:17 AM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
> There is no paper certificate for challenge. There is a plaque at
> additional cost. Additional levels have medallions.
>
> There is no application specifically for challenge either. You’re
> adding to your DXCC band totals, and challenge is just a running
> total of that for current entities.
>
> Maybe there should be a certificate for challenge but that would
> certainly be something new and not in the existing awards program.
>
> 73 Ria N2RJ
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 12:13 PM Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...
> <mailto:hbrakob@...>
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Hans Brakob
This thread has descended to the point that we are picking fly specks out of the pepper pot. In order to clear the air, here is the thrust of my position. - A reasonable person, familiar with the LoTW method of applying for a DXCC award, might incorrectly presume that if you used that available application method, you would then receive a paper certificate of accomplishment for the DXCC Challenge. I was such a “reasonable person”, and mistakenly made such an application with appropriate payment. The application and payment were accepted by “the system” without comment. As Ria points out, the application and payment really doesn’t get you a the expected certificate (it doesn’t even exist) , or anything else that wouldn’t already fall to you in the normal course of events. There is no return on your investment.
- Having learned that, I am lobbying for the establishment of a paper certificate (at usual “paper certificate cost”).
So where do we go from here? I see at least three paths. - We can ignore the issue. More ARRL members may “apply” and enrich ARRL by twenty bucks or so in mistaken expectation of a cardboard tube from the DXCC desk, and I’ll climb back under my rock.
- We can remove the facility to “apply” from the LoTW web page.
- Director Lippert and Director Jairam can jointly propose such a paper award to recognize the accomplishment of those ARRL Members who can’t see their way clear to purchase the more prestigious $97 plaque.
I support #3. -- 73, de Hans, K0HB "Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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Guess what......
DXCC Honor there is no certificate for once you attain Honor Roll
and you may not but I consider Honor Rool much more prestigious than the Challenge Q's award
If you want a DXCC Honor Roll plaque its current cost for USPS delivery is @ 90 us dollars
mine is en route to my mailbox, the cost for the Challenge Plaque is about the same
and more than a few would consider it (the Challenge plaque) a much nicer plaque.
and NO asterisk, for Honor Roll However
you do receive a little bitty sticker to affix to your paper DXCC Certificate
and of course your callsign in the Honor Roll List
Bottom of the list with 331 in my case, but I am very happy :)
All of this is addressed on the ARRL website
although it does take a bit of looking for some of the details
The devil is in the details :)
Cheers!
Steve
KG5VK
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When I got my challenge award, there were no certificates, only a plaque on which you can apply endorsement “coins” as you achieve them. Pete Chamalian, W1RM W1rm@...
From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Hans Brakob Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 3:17 PM To: ARRL-Awards@... Cc: AC0W@... Subject: [ARRL-Awards] DXCC Challenge Award This thread has descended to the point that we are picking fly specks out of the pepper pot. In order to clear the air, here is the thrust of my position. - A reasonable person, familiar with the LoTW method of applying for a DXCC award, might incorrectly presume that if you used that available application method, you would then receive a paper certificate of accomplishment for the DXCC Challenge. I was such a “reasonable person”, and mistakenly made such an application with appropriate payment. The application and payment were accepted by “the system” without comment. As Ria points out, the application and payment really doesn’t get you a the expected certificate (it doesn’t even exist) , or anything else that wouldn’t already fall to you in the normal course of events. There is no return on your investment.
- Having learned that, I am lobbying for the establishment of a paper certificate (at usual “paper certificate cost”).
So where do we go from here? I see at least three paths. - We can ignore the issue. More ARRL members may “apply” and enrich ARRL by twenty bucks or so in mistaken expectation of a cardboard tube from the DXCC desk, and I’ll climb back under my rock.
- We can remove the facility to “apply” from the LoTW web page.
- Director Lippert and Director Jairam can jointly propose such a paper award to recognize the accomplishment of those ARRL Members who can’t see their way clear to purchase the more prestigious $97 plaque.
I support #3.
--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™
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