More guessing??


Hugh Valentine <N4RJ@...>
 

 

It’s also absurd that every ham that uses a remote station are being generalized as “propagation shoppers”.

 

Who said this?  Is this a fact or another irrational defense?

 

Val

 


John K7KB
 

Well I believe "propagation shopping" was one of the reasons this change was recommended in the first place, and has been mentioned several times by people in defense of the proposed change. Which seems kind of ironic since propagation advantages by call areas existed in the past when I was first licensed. It's already been shown that many people use remote stations mainly because of restrictions in their own situations (HOA, equipment, monetary, family) rather than trying to gain a propagation advantage.

John K7KB


Hans Brakob
 


“Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before, He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”

John, the above quote from “Cat’s Cradle” comes to mind.

 

I play radio from my own little suburban lot, and one day I might get 3 or 4 more clicks and make the honor roll.

 

Some other guys play radio on a larger scale, and have more clicks than I do.

 

That doesn’t devalue my clicks.

 

73, de Hans, K0HB

 

 

 

From: John K7KB
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 04:50
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] More guessing??

 

Well I believe "propagation shopping" was one of the reasons this change was recommended in the first place, and has been mentioned several times by people in defense of the proposed change. Which seems kind of ironic since propagation advantages by call areas existed in the past when I was first licensed. It's already been shown that many people use remote stations mainly because of restrictions in their own situations (HOA, equipment, monetary, family) rather than trying to gain a propagation advantage.

John K7KB

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Zack Widup
 

I had some decent antennas at the place I lived four years ago, but in my newer location I just can't put up much. I have an MFJ 1796 vertical, which is a pitiful performer on 40 meters, my favorite band. I have no problem with going to someone else's station which is much larger than mine to work an ATNO. I've done it before. An ATNO for me showed up right at the end of a major DX contest. I was at another larger station, using another callsign for the contest. I worked him with the contest callsign and asked him to stay on after the end. A few minutes after the end of the contest I called him with my own callsign and worked him. The other contest station was only about 20 miles from my home.

Per current DXCC rules this is fine. It counts for DXCC. 

I'd hate to have to be limited to one location for operating for awards. What if I wanted to do this again? What about portable operation?

73, Zack W9SZ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:31 AM H Hans Brakob <hbrakob@...> wrote:


“Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before, He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”

John, the above quote from “Cat’s Cradle” comes to mind.

 

I play radio from my own little suburban lot, and one day I might get 3 or 4 more clicks and make the honor roll.

 

Some other guys play radio on a larger scale, and have more clicks than I do.

 

That doesn’t devalue my clicks.

 

73, de Hans, K0HB

 

 

 

From: John K7KB
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 04:50
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] More guessing??

 

Well I believe "propagation shopping" was one of the reasons this change was recommended in the first place, and has been mentioned several times by people in defense of the proposed change. Which seems kind of ironic since propagation advantages by call areas existed in the past when I was first licensed. It's already been shown that many people use remote stations mainly because of restrictions in their own situations (HOA, equipment, monetary, family) rather than trying to gain a propagation advantage.

John K7KB

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Virus-free. www.avast.com


W0MU
 

Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU


W0MU
 

I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU





Lou Laderman W0FK
 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.
Keep this in mind: "There's no honor on the Honor Roll." Attributed to W0FF, silent key and an outstanding DXer.

Although some will argue that's unethical, the very definition of ethics is very often a personal thing, which can vary from person to person. Run a bit more power to get the rare station before he goes QRT? DX was calling for the 5 station , yet you're a 1 and you call anyway and work him? The DX is going by the districts but you sneak in your out-of-district call and work him anyway? DX calls for the Alpha Kilo station, but yours is Baker Delta and you call and work him anyway? You knowingly call over another station and get through? Your buddy asks the DX station to listen for you and you work him? You go to a friend's house who has bigger antennas and an amp and use your own call? They all sound familiar, don't they?

Use a packet cluster to get a clue where to find a station?  Use a local tip-off frequency on 2M to listen for DX? Have a friend call you and wake you up to go work a station? Track spots on a station that you didn't compile yourself? Use a propagation program to predict when and where to listen? Those are tools to better DX, yet some would have you believe if you don't do it yourself your award isn't as good as theirs. Use several remote station stations to work DX? Same concept.

What difference does it make to you and to others if you remote to several stations and work DX? Realistically, NOTHING! A new country worked is a new country earned. Period. It's an INDIVIDUAL award with often ill-defined parameters and lots of shades of gray. The rules that can be defined are defined, and DXers live by them. Don't try and inject thin skinned feelings into the DXCC program.

73, Lou W0FK


Zack Widup
 

However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU





W0MU
 

So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Ria, N2RJ
 

I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Steven R Daniel, D.D.S.
 

If you host a contest operation with multiple operators and use your call of course the contacts will be good for your DXCC total. No?
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:


I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Ria, N2RJ
 

Yes.

(Not that I agree with that practice, but it is allowed under current DXCC rules).

Ria
N2RJ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:36 PM Steven R Daniel, D.D.S. <nn4t@...> wrote:
If you host a contest operation with multiple operators and use your call of course the contacts will be good for your DXCC total. No?
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:


I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Skip
 

WHEREAS: The amount of bandwidth occupied by discussions of the validity of remote operations counting for DXCC is very high and rising; and

WHEREAS: The same or more bandwidth has been occupied discussing "What is a Country" and will be in the future; and

WHEREAS: None of these discussions have led to anything approaching universal acceptance; and

WHEREAS: It is highly unlikely that they ever will; and

WHEREAS: A handful of coral rocks in the So. China Sea with a height of less than a meter AMSL have been declared a "DXCC entity"; and

WHEREAS: There are hundreds of other such coral rocks in the So. China Sea [been there, seen 'em from 12,000 ft in a C-130]; and

WHEREAS: DXCC has existed since the 1930's; and

WHEREAS: Amateur Radio in 2020 is vastly different than Amateur Radio in Clinton DeSoto's 1935; therefore

BE IT RESOLVED: DXCC has reached the logical end of it's life expectancy.

It wouldn't be the first ... BPL became an anachronism and is no longer awarded.  In fact, traffic totals are no longer reported in QST.  RIP W3CUL!

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 8/31/2020 11:36 AM, Steven R Daniel, D.D.S. wrote:
If you host a contest operation with multiple operators and use your call of course the contacts will be good for your DXCC total. No?
Steve, NN4T

On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:
I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU

On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Barry Porter KB1PA
 

Actually, BPL is still reported each month in QST, as is PSHR.

Barry


Steven R Daniel, D.D.S.
 

Good afternoon Ria. Is that not a function of one’s station being licensed by the FCC? Contacts made from that station, using the owner’s call sign, are credited to the owner. Of course a properly licensed ham can, with the station owner’s permission, operate the station with the call sign of the guest and the guest can use that contact for DXCC credit. 
That is the basis for me, as the control operator of an RHR station, using those credits for my DXCC.
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Steven R Daniel, D.D.S. <nn4t@...> wrote:

If you host a contest operation with multiple operators and use your call of course the contacts will be good for your DXCC total. No?
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@...> wrote:


I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






lesk39 <w2lk@...>
 

We're going way off the path here, I think. Once again, Ria, there has never been an issue with using someone else's station or being far away from home and using another station or being mobile in the same entity and using all those DX contacts from Maine to Florida or Washington to S. California or even from the black hole in the midwest for one's DXCC credit. There is not an issue using a remote station or two or three for the same purpose except for the guys that think it's an issue for their own competitive or lack of competitive reasons.

You have a solution looking for a problem but there is no problem. For whatever it's worth, after all is said and done, there are only three major RHR stations in the northeast. If an opening occurs or a much wanted DX station is spotted, unless you are Johnny on the spot and get to one of these stations first, you usually get shut out and have to wait, which, from my experience, means you miss the opening. That being the case, with this new rule, no one can use another station and has to wait until his or her particular station becomes free, which like I said, may not happen.

The lack of understanding on the part of the "it has to be the way I did it or it can't count crowd" from both their selfish point and the practical point of actual station availability is very clear. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just so much whining and nothing more than that.

From my personal point of view making a rule like this reduces even further my access to being on the air, just the idea of which is not making me very happy with the shortsightedness that is apparent in the argument and in support of it.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 2:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Ria, N2RJ
 

Les,

The rules are under discussion and on-topic. 

Furthermore, I was only answering a question from someone else.

You are in the southeastern division, you can take this up with Mickey as he sponsored the rule change. That would be far more effective than attempting to silence me. 

I didn't sponsor the rule change, but I am free to express my thoughts about the entire situation. 

Discussion is good. Telling me to be quiet is not.

Ria
N2RJ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM lesk39 <w2lk@...> wrote:

We're going way off the path here, I think. Once again, Ria, there has never been an issue with using someone else's station or being far away from home and using another station or being mobile in the same entity and using all those DX contacts from Maine to Florida or Washington to S. California or even from the black hole in the midwest for one's DXCC credit. There is not an issue using a remote station or two or three for the same purpose except for the guys that think it's an issue for their own competitive or lack of competitive reasons.

You have a solution looking for a problem but there is no problem. For whatever it's worth, after all is said and done, there are only three major RHR stations in the northeast. If an opening occurs or a much wanted DX station is spotted, unless you are Johnny on the spot and get to one of these stations first, you usually get shut out and have to wait, which, from my experience, means you miss the opening. That being the case, with this new rule, no one can use another station and has to wait until his or her particular station becomes free, which like I said, may not happen.

The lack of understanding on the part of the "it has to be the way I did it or it can't count crowd" from both their selfish point and the practical point of actual station availability is very clear. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just so much whining and nothing more than that.

From my personal point of view making a rule like this reduces even further my access to being on the air, just the idea of which is not making me very happy with the shortsightedness that is apparent in the argument and in support of it.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 2:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Ria, N2RJ
 

"Of course a properly licensed ham can, with the station owner’s
permission, operate the station with the call sign of the guest and
the guest can use that contact for DXCC credit."

That is true and was never under dispute.


Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:39 PM Steven R Daniel, D.D.S.
<nn4t@comcast.net> wrote:

Good afternoon Ria. Is that not a function of one’s station being licensed by the FCC? Contacts made from that station, using the owner’s call sign, are credited to the owner. Of course a properly licensed ham can, with the station owner’s permission, operate the station with the call sign of the guest and the guest can use that contact for DXCC credit.
That is the basis for me, as the control operator of an RHR station, using those credits for my DXCC.
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Steven R Daniel, D.D.S. <nn4t@comcast.net> wrote:

If you host a contest operation with multiple operators and use your call of course the contacts will be good for your DXCC total. No?
Steve, NN4T


On Aug 31, 2020, at 1:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ <rjairam@gmail.com> wrote:


I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@w0mu.com> wrote:

So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed? DXCC is awarded to Me. How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them. The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:

However, it is legal:

10. All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@w0mu.com> wrote:

I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there. Having your friend use your call is not YOU. This is an OPERATOR award not a station award. How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed? How could the ARRL even know? They can't. The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest.

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them. They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older. Shame on them. Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:

Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem. Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up. Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards? I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU




lesk39 <w2lk@...>
 

Ria,

You should be more careful. I didn't tell you to be quiet. I did say I think you are really wrong to support this proposal and that the proposal and support of it is short sighted. I have communicated with Mickey and he knows well how I feel. I am a big supporter of him but on this issue I think he has been seriously misled.

I am also pretty sure he is reading the mail on this thread and will jump in when he feels he needs to.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 4:01 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
Les,

The rules are under discussion and on-topic. 

Furthermore, I was only answering a question from someone else.

You are in the southeastern division, you can take this up with Mickey as he sponsored the rule change. That would be far more effective than attempting to silence me. 

I didn't sponsor the rule change, but I am free to express my thoughts about the entire situation. 

Discussion is good. Telling me to be quiet is not.

Ria
N2RJ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM lesk39 <w2lk@...> wrote:

We're going way off the path here, I think. Once again, Ria, there has never been an issue with using someone else's station or being far away from home and using another station or being mobile in the same entity and using all those DX contacts from Maine to Florida or Washington to S. California or even from the black hole in the midwest for one's DXCC credit. There is not an issue using a remote station or two or three for the same purpose except for the guys that think it's an issue for their own competitive or lack of competitive reasons.

You have a solution looking for a problem but there is no problem. For whatever it's worth, after all is said and done, there are only three major RHR stations in the northeast. If an opening occurs or a much wanted DX station is spotted, unless you are Johnny on the spot and get to one of these stations first, you usually get shut out and have to wait, which, from my experience, means you miss the opening. That being the case, with this new rule, no one can use another station and has to wait until his or her particular station becomes free, which like I said, may not happen.

The lack of understanding on the part of the "it has to be the way I did it or it can't count crowd" from both their selfish point and the practical point of actual station availability is very clear. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just so much whining and nothing more than that.

From my personal point of view making a rule like this reduces even further my access to being on the air, just the idea of which is not making me very happy with the shortsightedness that is apparent in the argument and in support of it.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 2:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU






Ria, N2RJ
 

You are mistaken. I didn't say that I support this proposal. You're assuming I do. You assumed incorrectly.

I do support the idea of some separate acknowledgement of those who have done DXCC with an additional constraint (single location)  and I do support the AA6YQ proposal, as it doesn't interfere with existing DXCC. That has been my position from day 1.

73
Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 4:38 PM lesk39 <w2lk@...> wrote:

Ria,

You should be more careful. I didn't tell you to be quiet. I did say I think you are really wrong to support this proposal and that the proposal and support of it is short sighted. I have communicated with Mickey and he knows well how I feel. I am a big supporter of him but on this issue I think he has been seriously misled.

I am also pretty sure he is reading the mail on this thread and will jump in when he feels he needs to.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 4:01 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
Les,

The rules are under discussion and on-topic. 

Furthermore, I was only answering a question from someone else.

You are in the southeastern division, you can take this up with Mickey as he sponsored the rule change. That would be far more effective than attempting to silence me. 

I didn't sponsor the rule change, but I am free to express my thoughts about the entire situation. 

Discussion is good. Telling me to be quiet is not.

Ria
N2RJ

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM lesk39 <w2lk@...> wrote:

We're going way off the path here, I think. Once again, Ria, there has never been an issue with using someone else's station or being far away from home and using another station or being mobile in the same entity and using all those DX contacts from Maine to Florida or Washington to S. California or even from the black hole in the midwest for one's DXCC credit. There is not an issue using a remote station or two or three for the same purpose except for the guys that think it's an issue for their own competitive or lack of competitive reasons.

You have a solution looking for a problem but there is no problem. For whatever it's worth, after all is said and done, there are only three major RHR stations in the northeast. If an opening occurs or a much wanted DX station is spotted, unless you are Johnny on the spot and get to one of these stations first, you usually get shut out and have to wait, which, from my experience, means you miss the opening. That being the case, with this new rule, no one can use another station and has to wait until his or her particular station becomes free, which like I said, may not happen.

The lack of understanding on the part of the "it has to be the way I did it or it can't count crowd" from both their selfish point and the practical point of actual station availability is very clear. Like I pointed out earlier, this is just so much whining and nothing more than that.

From my personal point of view making a rule like this reduces even further my access to being on the air, just the idea of which is not making me very happy with the shortsightedness that is apparent in the argument and in support of it.

Les W2LK


On 8/31/2020 2:30 PM, Ria, N2RJ wrote:
I don't agree with rule 10... nobody said DXCC was perfect. In my world you would have to make your own contacts. Contacts made by others shouldn't ever count.

Ria
N2RJ


On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 2:23 PM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
So it is ok for someone else to work DX for me as long as they are at my station, but I can have multiple stations.......How in the world is that allowed?  DXCC is awarded to Me.  How can I get credit if Joe works them all for me or some of them.  The station is not working the DX an OPERATOR is and if they OPERATOR is not the guy applying for the award then it should not count!!!!!!!!   

I guess this exposed the award even more.

W0MU



On 8/31/2020 11:37 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
However, it is legal:

10.  All contacts must be made using call signs issued to the same station licensee. Contacts made by an operator other than the licensee must be made from a station owned and usually operated by the licensee, and must be made in accordance with the regulations governing the license grant. Contacts may be made from other stations provided they are personally made by the licensee. The intent of this rule is to prohibit credit for contacts made for you by another operator from another location. You may combine confirmations from several call signs held for credit to one DXCC award, as long as the provisions of Rule 9 are met. Contacts made from club stations using a club call sign may not be used for credit to an individual's DXCC.

73, Zack W9SZ



Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 10:29 AM W0MU <w0mu@...> wrote:
I could also add, why do we do a complete audit of the DXCC and see how many people that went on DX peditions to rare places also somehow managed to work that same enitity from their stations while they were still there.  Having your friend use your call is not YOU.  This is an OPERATOR award not a station award.  How many people moved yet kept their old contacts before the rules were changed?  How could the ARRL even know?  They can't.  The rules were designed around honesty and time and time again, humans have proven to be very dishonest. 

Some people have taken a shot at RHR and remote operations because they are threatened by them.  They are trying to convince people that somehow people playing radio from multiple sides of the county using emerging technology is ruining their award and tarnishing a program that has never been spotless to begin with.

I hope I never turn into this type of person when I get a bit older.  Shame on them.  Go run an HOA in Florida and leave emerging radio to those pushing it.

73
W0MU



On 8/31/2020 9:17 AM, W0MU wrote:
Ok Val I will play.

I have not seen one document that show conclusively that propagation shopping is a huge problem.  Some perceive this to be an issue please show us some data that backs it up.  Neither side can produce such a document so lets drop this.

The goal should be to allow the most amount of people the opportunity to get awards and the rules should allow for emerging technologies.

Egos need to be checked at the door.

While some of complaining about so called propagation shopping, how many of those actually own amplifiers that easily exceed the legal limit and have use them to collect awards?  I have no proof to back it up but I would be willing to guess that more people cheat with power than propagation shop.

So the award is already blemished if you will and always has been.

W0MU