Date   

Re: ARRL v Robot

Gary Hinson <Gary@...>
 

Aside from the DXCC rule which is (arguably) ambiguously worded and difficult to prove and so enforce, plus the ethics and possible safety issues, the strongest argument for me is that robotic automation drains the fun out of digi-DXing.  I don’t want to automate myself out of the loop.  I enjoy being an integral and active part of my DXing system.

 

If other ops choose to run full-auto 24x7, that makes it a bit easier for me to contact them when the path is open, although personally I’d prefer to know there is a licensed ham in the shack at the far end monitoring things.

 

73

Gary  ZL2iFB

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Ria, N2RJ
Sent: 25 September 2021 07:48
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] ARRL v Robot

 

WSJT-z and MSHV are two that I know of. I know of a few ops who use them in full auto and even unattended mode.

 

Enforcement of the rule? For me it’s about knowing that my plaque on the wall was obtained with honor, I didn’t break any of the rules, didn’t operate illegally etc. I don’t know if the desk has taken action against anyone for fully automatic FT8 (which is absolutely against the rules) but that’s not my primary concern.

 

Ria

N2RJ

 

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 3:37 PM Steven Rutledge <steven.t.rutledge@...> wrote:

I don't think there is anything to worry about.  The ARRL is very busy and I doubt they have time to investigate and prove what you are using for operating software.  I'm curious though?  What "automation" are they speaking of?  I'm not aware of any software that makes automatic QSOs although I guess it could be done.

Steve, N4JQQ

DXAC, Delta

On 9/24/2021 12:18 PM, Kermit Lehman via groups.arrl.org wrote:

This statement was made on the FTDMC Facebook group:

 

 

"Now days if the ARRL finds you are using automation they will strip you of any awards they believe you used it for."

 

 

Is this true?  I know you aren't supposed to claim credit for any QSO involving automation, but that's a far step from taking away an award which was otherwise earned honestly.

 

 

73,

 

Ken, AB1J

 

 


Re: ARRL v Robot

Ria, N2RJ
 

WSJT-z and MSHV are two that I know of. I know of a few ops who use them in full auto and even unattended mode.

Enforcement of the rule? For me it’s about knowing that my plaque on the wall was obtained with honor, I didn’t break any of the rules, didn’t operate illegally etc. I don’t know if the desk has taken action against anyone for fully automatic FT8 (which is absolutely against the rules) but that’s not my primary concern.

Ria
N2RJ

On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 3:37 PM Steven Rutledge <steven.t.rutledge@...> wrote:

I don't think there is anything to worry about.  The ARRL is very busy and I doubt they have time to investigate and prove what you are using for operating software.  I'm curious though?  What "automation" are they speaking of?  I'm not aware of any software that makes automatic QSOs although I guess it could be done.

Steve, N4JQQ

DXAC, Delta

On 9/24/2021 12:18 PM, Kermit Lehman via groups.arrl.org wrote:
This statement was made on the FTDMC Facebook group:


"Now days if the ARRL finds you are using automation they will strip you of any awards they believe you used it for."


Is this true?  I know you aren't supposed to claim credit for any QSO involving automation, but that's a far step from taking away an award which was otherwise earned honestly.


73,

Ken, AB1J



Re: ARRL v Robot

Steven Rutledge <steven.t.rutledge@...>
 

I don't think there is anything to worry about.  The ARRL is very busy and I doubt they have time to investigate and prove what you are using for operating software.  I'm curious though?  What "automation" are they speaking of?  I'm not aware of any software that makes automatic QSOs although I guess it could be done.

Steve, N4JQQ

DXAC, Delta

On 9/24/2021 12:18 PM, Kermit Lehman via groups.arrl.org wrote:

This statement was made on the FTDMC Facebook group:


"Now days if the ARRL finds you are using automation they will strip you of any awards they believe you used it for."


Is this true?  I know you aren't supposed to claim credit for any QSO involving automation, but that's a far step from taking away an award which was otherwise earned honestly.


73,

Ken, AB1J



ARRL v Robot

Kermit Lehman
 

This statement was made on the FTDMC Facebook group:


"Now days if the ARRL finds you are using automation they will strip you of any awards they believe you used it for."


Is this true?  I know you aren't supposed to claim credit for any QSO involving automation, but that's a far step from taking away an award which was otherwise earned honestly.


73,

Ken, AB1J



Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

Gilbert Baron
 

67 Years here. Enjoying it but no longer have the spot for a great HF antenna setup.

 

Outlook Laptop Gil W0MN

Hierro candente, batir de repente

44.08226N 92.51265W EN34rb

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of HH Brakob
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:34
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

Just a youngster here, Val.  Only 57 years in the game.

 

But it just keeps getting better.  

 

73, de Hans, KØHB

“Just a Boy and his Radio”™


From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Hugh Valentine <hsvdds@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 9:29:15 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...>
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

 

I’ve played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

“Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?”

…Uh, kinda doubt it……

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

Gilbert Baron
 

WHAT A CYNICAL VIEW.

 

Outlook Laptop Gil W0MN

Hierro candente, batir de repente

44.08226N 92.51265W EN34rb

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> On Behalf Of Steven R Daniel, D.D.S.
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 09:52
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

Good morning Val. What do you mean by “altruism”? Steve, NN4T

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... [mailto:ARRL-Awards@...] On Behalf Of Hugh Valentine
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2021 9:29 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

 

I’ve played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

“Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?”

…Uh, kinda doubt it……

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

HH Brakob
 

Just a youngster here, Val.  Only 57 years in the game.

But it just keeps getting better.  

73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of Hugh Valentine <hsvdds@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 9:29:15 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...>
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.
 

 

I’ve played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

“Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?”

…Uh, kinda doubt it……

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

bmanning
 

Val

"Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?"

...Uh, kinda doubt it......

Are you saying that there is no Honor in those who are on the Honor Roll? That everyone who has achieved the status of Honor Roll cheated in some way?

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Thu, 9 Sep 2021 02:29:15 +0000, "Hugh Valentine" <hsvdds@...> wrote:

 

I've played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

"Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?"

...Uh, kinda doubt it......

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 

 

-- 
Bruce A. Manning


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

Steven R Daniel, D.D.S.
 

Good morning Val. What do you mean by “altruism”? Steve, NN4T

 

From: ARRL-Awards@... [mailto:ARRL-Awards@...] On Behalf Of Hugh Valentine
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2021 9:29 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

 

I’ve played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

“Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?”

…Uh, kinda doubt it……

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

Hugh Valentine
 

 

I’ve played this game for 65 years.

Observation:

What you have and will continue to have is a discussion between those who adhere to altruism and those who are selfish enough to aspire to slide under the rules laid forth by those who constructed awards based upon merit. May the best(most self centered) players win.

“Is there still HONOR within the Honor Roll?”

…Uh, kinda doubt it……

Val

N4RJ

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: bmanning
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 7:21 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning

 


Re: WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

bmanning
 

First there is the 50 mile rule. All QSO must be made with in 50 miles. You can get more than one WAS award though. Example someone from New York and has a WAS then moves to Florida and gets a WAS for that QTH. I assume if you have a summer home that is more than 50 miles from your winter home you should be able to make 2 applications. But all QSO's would need to be separate for each QTH.

73

 Bruce NJ3K

On Wed, 08 Sep 2021 15:57:41 -0700, james.troup@... wrote:

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.

-- 
Bruce A. Manning


WAS Awards Certificates from multiple station locations, using same operator's callsign.

james.troup@...
 

When multiple station locations are used by same radio operator,  obtaining the 50 award credits for WAS at each station, how can the WAS certificates be made to reflect each location separately ?   I had tried CallSign State, but that is refused be award manager.


Re: Blade Runners

HH Brakob
 

Except for their own awards, organizations such as ARRL, CQ, IOTA, POTA, etc., have no “authority” on what is a “good contact”.  

Do what’s fun for you within your country’s regulations.

73, de Hans, KØHB
“Just a Boy and his Radio”™

From: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...> on behalf of W0MU <w0mu@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 1:11:56 PM
To: ARRL-Awards@... <ARRL-Awards@...>
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Blade Runners
 
I don't understand the people that want to stop people from enjoying the hobby and activating the bands and making contacts.  No remotes, nope.  If you don't send rr73 or 73 in FT/X no contact and the list goes on and on.

W0MU

On 9/7/2021 10:11 PM, Hans Brakob wrote:

By that test pretty much every contest QSO (in any mode) would be NIL.B

 

 

 

 

From: Dave AA6YQ
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 03:53
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Blade Runners

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

I can’t conceive of a “robot check” (generally available to “Joe Sixpack” casual operators) which would reveal that my QSO partner was not an attended station.  So I work the station, claim it in an applications for an award (with the appropriate fee payment), and am denied the award.

 

+ Extend the protocol to enable an operator to send a Turing test to his or her QSO partner, and receive the result. Wrong answer => not in log.

 

de AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Re: Blade Runners

W0MU
 

I don't understand the people that want to stop people from enjoying the hobby and activating the bands and making contacts.  No remotes, nope.  If you don't send rr73 or 73 in FT/X no contact and the list goes on and on.

W0MU

On 9/7/2021 10:11 PM, Hans Brakob wrote:

By that test pretty much every contest QSO (in any mode) would be NIL.B

 

 

 

 

From: Dave AA6YQ
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 03:53
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Blade Runners

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

I can’t conceive of a “robot check” (generally available to “Joe Sixpack” casual operators) which would reveal that my QSO partner was not an attended station.  So I work the station, claim it in an applications for an award (with the appropriate fee payment), and am denied the award.

 

+ Extend the protocol to enable an operator to send a Turing test to his or her QSO partner, and receive the result. Wrong answer => not in log.

 

de AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Re: Blade Runners

Hans Brakob
 

By that test pretty much every contest QSO (in any mode) would be NIL.B

 

 

 

 

From: Dave AA6YQ
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 03:53
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Blade Runners

 

+ AA6YQ comments below

 

I can’t conceive of a “robot check” (generally available to “Joe Sixpack” casual operators) which would reveal that my QSO partner was not an attended station.  So I work the station, claim it in an applications for an award (with the appropriate fee payment), and am denied the award.

 

+ Extend the protocol to enable an operator to send a Turing test to his or her QSO partner, and receive the result. Wrong answer => not in log.

 

de AA6YQ

 

 

 

 

 

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Re: Blade Runners

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I can’t conceive of a “robot check” (generally available to “Joe Sixpack” casual operators) which would reveal that my QSO partner was not an attended station. So I work the station, claim it in an applications for an award (with the appropriate fee payment), and am denied the award.

+ Extend the protocol to enable an operator to send a Turing test to his or her QSO partner, and receive the result. Wrong answer => not in log.

de AA6YQ


Re: Blade Runners

Hans Brakob
 

I appreciate the sentiment behind the rule, but enforcement is only likely to hurt the innocent.

 

I can’t conceive of a “robot check” (generally available to “Joe Sixpack” casual operators) which would reveal that my QSO partner was not an attended station.  So I work the station, claim it in an applications for an award (with the appropriate fee payment), and am denied the award.

 

That would suck.

 

 

 

 

 

From: Ria, N2RJ
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2021 02:30
To: ARRL-Awards@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Awards] Blade Runners

 

I wrote that rule with the late Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT.

 

Enforcement is up to the awards branch.

 

 


--
73, de Hans, K0HB
"Just a Boy and His Radio"™


Re: Blade Runners

Dave AA6YQ
 

+ AA6YQ comments below

I wrote that rule with the late Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT.

Enforcement is up to the awards branch.

That said, participants in an awards program first and foremost are supposed to voluntarily abide by the rules.

How do you know? Believe it or not many of those who do it brag about it.

+ "many" is not "all".


Or you have hams who are on air 24/7 on multiple bands with FT8 and similar modes, super humans who don’t sleep. You can tell by checking PSkReporter. Joe Taylor mentioned several stations who do this, in a presentation of his. He doesn’t endorse this practice.

+ It's not a violation to claim DXCC credit for a QSO with an operator who is known to frequently let his or her station run unattended if that operator was present and initiated the QSO.


I don’t know if anyone has been disqualified due to this rule.

I would like to see this rule enforced

+ The rule is unenforceable, as are several other DXCC rules.

as it would help quell some of the “FT8 is ruining ham radio” sentiment.

+ Ham radio has already been ruined by CW, SSB, RTTY, PSK, transistors, integrated circuits, microprocessors, satellites, and EME.

de AA6YQ


Re: Blade Runners

Ria, N2RJ
 

I wrote that rule with the late Jim Tiemstra, K6JAT.

Enforcement is up to the awards branch.

That said, participants in an awards program first and foremost are supposed to voluntarily abide by the rules.

How do you know? Believe it or not many of those who do it brag about it. Or you have hams who are on air 24/7 on multiple bands with FT8 and similar modes, super humans who don’t sleep. You can tell by checking PSkReporter. Joe Taylor mentioned several stations who do this, in a presentation of his. He doesn’t endorse this practice. 

I don’t know if anyone has been disqualified due to this rule.

I would like to see this rule enforced, as it would help quell some of the “FT8 is ruining ham radio” sentiment. 

Ria
N2RJ 




On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 10:17 PM Kermit Lehman via groups.arrl.org <ktfrog007=aol.com@...> wrote:
The DXCC rules contain this line concerning robotic operation:


6a)  Each contact claimed for DXCC credit must include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact.


There is something similar for WAS.


How is this enforced?  Is it on the honor system?  How do you know if you worked a robot station?


Has it ever been used to deny DXCC or WAS credit?


73,

Ken, AB1J


Blade Runners

Kermit Lehman
 

The DXCC rules contain this line concerning robotic operation:


6a)  Each contact claimed for DXCC credit must include contemporaneous direct initiation by the operator on both sides of the contact.


There is something similar for WAS.


How is this enforced?  Is it on the honor system?  How do you know if you worked a robot station?


Has it ever been used to deny DXCC or WAS credit?


73,

Ken, AB1J