1. ARRL-Antenna-Law-And-Policy
  2. Messages

Expanded

Topics Messages Polls
   Date   
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Tom Fagan
 

Tom N6BT (n6bt.com) has a line of antennas shaped like flowers, dolphins, cactus, etc. I use his N6BT Bravo 5A antenna which is only 9 feet tall and I have over 20,000 QSO's on it. It is very efficient. I had that in a HOA area.
I'm currently moving to another HOA area with a larger yard. I could not find a nice house that was not in a HOA.
I'll still use the Bravo but will be able to put up a some wire antennas for the lower bands. I am hoping I can put up my satellite antennas.
Got to love the CC&R's here. No antennas, No Transmitters, No Receivers. Should be easy to fight unless they want to get rid of cars, cell phones, microwaves, TV antennas, Satellite antennas, garage door openers, key fobs, etc. I fought many HOA's for folks that had similar language and got reasonable accommodation for antennas added.

Tom K7DF
ARRL ASM, TS Arizona (Former SM)
Vail AZ

On Wednesday, October 28, 2020, 09:09:00 AM PDT, Tim Rodgers <timkc1twr@...> wrote:


Please do not discount those who use VHF. Having an exterior antenna benefits them greatly. I am currently using a copper pipe j-Pole in my upstairs bedroom, and have troubles reaching some repeaters I can hit from my car.

73,'Tim KC1TWR

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:50 AM Chuck K4RGN <K4rgn@...> wrote:
> Twenty-five to 27 percent of the U.S. population now resides
> in a community association...

Yes, and the ratio of those residents to amateur radio licensees is about 100:1. And half of those licensees are Technicians who don't use HF. 

Even if the ARRL was the world's most effective inrterest group in terms of lobbying, it would be a miracle to get complete legislative relief. The NRA is considered to be highly effective by both supporters and opponents of gun control, but the NRA has 5.5 million members... more than 30 times the size of the ARRL.Even the Sierra Club is 4 times larger than the ARRL.

73 Chuck K4RGN 
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Tim Rodgers
 

Please do not discount those who use VHF. Having an exterior antenna benefits them greatly. I am currently using a copper pipe j-Pole in my upstairs bedroom, and have troubles reaching some repeaters I can hit from my car.

73,'Tim KC1TWR

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:50 AM Chuck K4RGN <K4rgn@...> wrote:
> Twenty-five to 27 percent of the U.S. population now resides
> in a community association...

Yes, and the ratio of those residents to amateur radio licensees is about 100:1. And half of those licensees are Technicians who don't use HF. 

Even if the ARRL was the world's most effective inrterest group in terms of lobbying, it would be a miracle to get complete legislative relief. The NRA is considered to be highly effective by both supporters and opponents of gun control, but the NRA has 5.5 million members... more than 30 times the size of the ARRL.Even the Sierra Club is 4 times larger than the ARRL.

73 Chuck K4RGN 

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Chuck K4RGN
 

> Twenty-five to 27 percent of the U.S. population now resides
> in a community association...

Yes, and the ratio of those residents to amateur radio licensees is about 100:1. And half of those licensees are Technicians who don't use HF. 

Even if the ARRL was the world's most effective inrterest group in terms of lobbying, it would be a miracle to get complete legislative relief. The NRA is considered to be highly effective by both supporters and opponents of gun control, but the NRA has 5.5 million members... more than 30 times the size of the ARRL.Even the Sierra Club is 4 times larger than the ARRL.

73 Chuck K4RGN 
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Tim Rodgers
 

To put in perspective how many would be impacted by such a policy the following indicates more than some might imagine.

Twenty-five to 27 percent of the U.S. population now resides in a community association (e.g. planned communities, condominium communities, and housing cooperatives), according to the National and State Statistical Review for Community Association Data, published by the Foundation for Community Association Research.


On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 4:26 PM Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I, too, have a vertical antenna, but it's buried amongst a  bunch of greenery (so as to not offend the HOA's sensibilities) with a minimal radial field.  It doesn't work very well.
In my case if ARPA, despite all its flaws, would have been made law, our HOA was prepared to allow me to have whatever tower our local municipality would have permitted.  At the time it was 40 feet.  (It's now 70 feet!)  So, hopeful that ARPA was going to pass, we bought this house.  "Hope" is never a good plan.....

Mike, NE8P

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Mike Polom
 
Edited

I, too, have a vertical antenna, but it's buried amongst a  bunch of greenery (so as to not offend the HOA's sensibilities) with a minimal radial field.  It doesn't work very well.
In my case if ARPA, despite all its flaws, would have been made law, our HOA was prepared to allow me to have whatever tower our local municipality would have permitted.  At the time it was 40 feet.  (It's now 70 feet!)  So, hopeful that ARPA was going to pass, we bought this house.  "Hope" is never a good plan.....

Mike, NE8P
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

I understand your pain. I remember reading PRB 1 and realizing it excluded HOAs. I did have a more reasonable HOA so I got a  vertical approved. It helped that the HOA President was a ham. 
Ray 
W8LYJ 



On Oct 27, 2020, at 13:56, Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

Yes, there's been some recent talk per my earlier post, but zero results.  This has been an ongoing effort at the ARRL for 10 years.  I know this:  If I'd been assigned some important project/task when I worked for General Motors, I'd have never been employed long enough to be giving a 10 year status report as summarized in the July BoD report out.  I'd have been terminated 9 years ago.

While your 100 watt, stealth dipole solution may have satisfied you, Bob, for me there's no joy in chasing DX or operating in major contests with such a nominal antenna.  (..... all the while worried the HOA police might discover my nefariousness)

As new housing developments all include these restrictions an increasing number of hams (and want to be hams) have little to no antenna, which makes the amateur radio sphere shrink, perhaps to a radius of zero at some point.  Yes, I know amazing distances can be covered with FT8/4, but there's no joy there for me either.  I need to process the QSO, not the computer.

For me, if the ARRL doesn't come up with something that potentially allows a modest tower with aluminum at the top in an HOA controlled subdivision, then they will have FAILED, and I will either need to move or exit ham radio after 50+ years.

Mike, NE8P

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Mike Polom
 

Yes, there's been some recent talk per my earlier post, but zero results.  This has been an ongoing effort at the ARRL for 10 years.  I know this:  If I'd been assigned some important project/task when I worked for General Motors, I'd have never been employed long enough to be giving a 10 year status report as summarized in the July BoD report out.  I'd have been terminated 9 years ago.

While your 100 watt, stealth dipole solution may have satisfied you, Bob, for me there's no joy in chasing DX or operating in major contests with such a nominal antenna.  (..... all the while worried the HOA police might discover my nefariousness)

As new housing developments all include these restrictions an increasing number of hams (and want to be hams) have little to no antenna, which makes the amateur radio sphere shrink, perhaps to a radius of zero at some point.  Yes, I know amazing distances can be covered with FT8/4, but there's no joy there for me either.  I need to process the QSO, not the computer.

For me, if the ARRL doesn't come up with something that potentially allows a modest tower with aluminum at the top in an HOA controlled subdivision, then they will have FAILED, and I will either need to move or exit ham radio after 50+ years.

Mike, NE8P
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

Remember the bill was just the authorization for the FCC to write rules allowing amateur radio antennas,  Authority the FCC said in PRB that they did not have. 

In the past amateur Bill, the HOAs would be required by the FCC rules to let hams have effective antennas. So basically the HOA  could not say no even though they had to give approval. 

The big issue the HOAs had with OTARD was residents could put up a satellite/TV antenna and the first the HOA would know was when they walked by the house. 

Ray
W8LYJ 


On Oct 27, 2020, at 12:40, Bob AF9W <af9w@...> wrote:



Yes, they have talked to the National HOA, they are the leading opponent to the act.  They have also discussed this with the FCC, but the FCC says it is not their call until Congress acts.  If you live in an HOA then you need to convince them that emergency communications are good for the HOA.  Then you need to show them that antennas can be erected in such a way as to not interfere with the neighbors view of the world.  In AZ I made my wire antennas out of The Wireman’s 534-Antenna Wire, 26 AWG Copper-Clad Steel Stranded Jacketed antenna wire.  It’s virtually invisible but handles 100watts with no problem.  I had my antenna up for 10 years and no problems in an HOA that strictly forbid ham antennas.  The problem is that people who live in HOA’s picture ham antennas as 70’ towers with lots of aluminum. 

 

One of the problems with passing the law is that the National HOA verbally agreed to a deal where antennas would be allowed but they had to be approved by the HOA and the amateur community didn’t want that.  Much unreasonableness on both sides. 

 

Bob AF9W

 

From: ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@... <ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@...> On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 10:28 AM
To: ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy] Private land-Use Restrictions

 

Have they talked to the HOA National about this?  Are they having discussions with FCC?

Ray

W8LYJ



On Oct 27, 2020, at 08:39, Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

I received this email in late March from my ARRL Division Director:

"The exact verbiage is still embargoed, pending fine tuning, but here is a synopsis.

1. Legislation which would pass a PRB-1 type exclusion for amateur antennas in HOAs.

2. Legislation which would allow limited amateur antennas in HOAs as an amendment to the OTARD (over the air reception devices) law.

        3. State driven legislation modeled after the flagpole laws and (in Florida) the garden and clothesline laws."

Subsequently, there was a report out by the Legislative Advocacy Committee at the July ARRL BoD Meeting.  The summary of that report out is as follows.
Mr. Tiemstra shared highlights of the report, calling attention to the appendix submitted that morning which included outcomes of their meeting with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. He also provided a summary of their work on addressing private land use restrictions, noting the need to address this matter has only grown since it was introduced, adding that they have been meeting at least once a month, have had numerous exchanges with legislators on Capitol Hill, noting that the pandemic has prevented in-person meetings and has slowed their agenda. He added that their messaging is more successful when they define amateur radio as critical infrastructure of emergency service, which is front of mind right now. There was a discussion of the support that our efforts currently have in Washington and moving as quickly as possible on finding co-sponsors; at this time we cannot guarantee the success of anything, but we must continue to maintain a presence and cultivate friendly relationships in order to meet our goals.
There was a also discussion about providing talking points for Board members to use in talking to members about the HOA issue, as well as an ARRL guide for members to use in negotiating tactics on antenna use restrictions with their HOA’s, as our members expect the League to be actively working on these issues, which the Board concurred would be beneficial for all.

The actual report has not been posted to the ARRL Committee Reports website.  On September 11, 2020 I emailed N6JAT, N4MB and KG4JSZ requesting a copy of the whole report and, to date, I have received no reply from any of them.

As far as I can tell, no substantive progress has been made on this issue in the ~10 years it's been a priority at the ARRL.

Mike, NE8P
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

The bill did not fizzle, it was withdraw at the request of ARRL. With Nelson gone it would have passed the new Congress. 
Ray
W8LYJ 


On Oct 27, 2020, at 12:40, Richard C. Bernhardt <rbernhardt@...> wrote:

 Remember the Amateur Radio Parity Act? It was being held up by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida (no longer in office),
and then it just fizzled back in 2018. I have an archive of emails on proposed actions and responses from the ARRL.
As far as I know, it is currently housed in the "tomb of the unknowns".

On 10/16/2020 1:47 PM, AI3KS wrote:
Anyone know if there are any updates?

Steve, AI3KS

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

The HOA has millions of dollars to fight any attempt to reduce HOA antenna restrictions. The previous  bill could not even get a vote in the house Committee until ARRL cut a deal with the HOA National Organization.  
So how much money has ARRL budgeted to pay attorneys, lobbyist etc? 
What is different about this latest attempt?

Ray
W8LYJ 


On Oct 27, 2020, at 12:40, Richard C. Bernhardt <rbernhardt@...> wrote:

 Remember the Amateur Radio Parity Act? It was being held up by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida (no longer in office),
and then it just fizzled back in 2018. I have an archive of emails on proposed actions and responses from the ARRL.
As far as I know, it is currently housed in the "tomb of the unknowns".

On 10/16/2020 1:47 PM, AI3KS wrote:
Anyone know if there are any updates?

Steve, AI3KS

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Richard C. Bernhardt
 

Remember the Amateur Radio Parity Act? It was being held up by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida (no longer in office),
and then it just fizzled back in 2018. I have an archive of emails on proposed actions and responses from the ARRL.
As far as I know, it is currently housed in the "tomb of the unknowns".

On 10/16/2020 1:47 PM, AI3KS wrote:

Anyone know if there are any updates?

Steve, AI3KS

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Bob AF9W
 

Yes, they have talked to the National HOA, they are the leading opponent to the act.  They have also discussed this with the FCC, but the FCC says it is not their call until Congress acts.  If you live in an HOA then you need to convince them that emergency communications are good for the HOA.  Then you need to show them that antennas can be erected in such a way as to not interfere with the neighbors view of the world.  In AZ I made my wire antennas out of The Wireman’s 534-Antenna Wire, 26 AWG Copper-Clad Steel Stranded Jacketed antenna wire.  It’s virtually invisible but handles 100watts with no problem.  I had my antenna up for 10 years and no problems in an HOA that strictly forbid ham antennas.  The problem is that people who live in HOA’s picture ham antennas as 70’ towers with lots of aluminum. 

 

One of the problems with passing the law is that the National HOA verbally agreed to a deal where antennas would be allowed but they had to be approved by the HOA and the amateur community didn’t want that.  Much unreasonableness on both sides. 

 

Bob AF9W

 

From: ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@... <ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@...> On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 10:28 AM
To: ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy@...
Subject: Re: [ARRL-Antenna-Law-and-Policy] Private land-Use Restrictions

 

Have they talked to the HOA National about this?  Are they having discussions with FCC?

Ray

W8LYJ



On Oct 27, 2020, at 08:39, Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

I received this email in late March from my ARRL Division Director:

"The exact verbiage is still embargoed, pending fine tuning, but here is a synopsis.

1. Legislation which would pass a PRB-1 type exclusion for amateur antennas in HOAs.

2. Legislation which would allow limited amateur antennas in HOAs as an amendment to the OTARD (over the air reception devices) law.

        3. State driven legislation modeled after the flagpole laws and (in Florida) the garden and clothesline laws."

Subsequently, there was a report out by the Legislative Advocacy Committee at the July ARRL BoD Meeting.  The summary of that report out is as follows.
Mr. Tiemstra shared highlights of the report, calling attention to the appendix submitted that morning which included outcomes of their meeting with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. He also provided a summary of their work on addressing private land use restrictions, noting the need to address this matter has only grown since it was introduced, adding that they have been meeting at least once a month, have had numerous exchanges with legislators on Capitol Hill, noting that the pandemic has prevented in-person meetings and has slowed their agenda. He added that their messaging is more successful when they define amateur radio as critical infrastructure of emergency service, which is front of mind right now. There was a discussion of the support that our efforts currently have in Washington and moving as quickly as possible on finding co-sponsors; at this time we cannot guarantee the success of anything, but we must continue to maintain a presence and cultivate friendly relationships in order to meet our goals.
There was a also discussion about providing talking points for Board members to use in talking to members about the HOA issue, as well as an ARRL guide for members to use in negotiating tactics on antenna use restrictions with their HOA’s, as our members expect the League to be actively working on these issues, which the Board concurred would be beneficial for all.

The actual report has not been posted to the ARRL Committee Reports website.  On September 11, 2020 I emailed N6JAT, N4MB and KG4JSZ requesting a copy of the whole report and, to date, I have received no reply from any of them.

As far as I can tell, no substantive progress has been made on this issue in the ~10 years it's been a priority at the ARRL.

Mike, NE8P
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

Have they talked to the HOA National about this?  Are they having discussions with FCC?
Ray
W8LYJ


On Oct 27, 2020, at 08:39, Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

I received this email in late March from my ARRL Division Director:
"The exact verbiage is still embargoed, pending fine tuning, but here is a synopsis.
1. Legislation which would pass a PRB-1 type exclusion for amateur antennas in HOAs.
2. Legislation which would allow limited amateur antennas in HOAs as an amendment to the OTARD (over the air reception devices) law.
        3. State driven legislation modeled after the flagpole laws and (in Florida) the garden and clothesline laws."

Subsequently, there was a report out by the Legislative Advocacy Committee at the July ARRL BoD Meeting.  The summary of that report out is as follows.
Mr. Tiemstra shared highlights of the report, calling attention to the appendix submitted that morning which included outcomes of their meeting with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. He also provided a summary of their work on addressing private land use restrictions, noting the need to address this matter has only grown since it was introduced, adding that they have been meeting at least once a month, have had numerous exchanges with legislators on Capitol Hill, noting that the pandemic has prevented in-person meetings and has slowed their agenda. He added that their messaging is more successful when they define amateur radio as critical infrastructure of emergency service, which is front of mind right now. There was a discussion of the support that our efforts currently have in Washington and moving as quickly as possible on finding co-sponsors; at this time we cannot guarantee the success of anything, but we must continue to maintain a presence and cultivate friendly relationships in order to meet our goals.
There was a also discussion about providing talking points for Board members to use in talking to members about the HOA issue, as well as an ARRL guide for members to use in negotiating tactics on antenna use restrictions with their HOA’s, as our members expect the League to be actively working on these issues, which the Board concurred would be beneficial for all.

The actual report has not been posted to the ARRL Committee Reports website.  On September 11, 2020 I emailed N6JAT, N4MB and KG4JSZ requesting a copy of the whole report and, to date, I have received no reply from any of them.

As far as I can tell, no substantive progress has been made on this issue in the ~10 years it's been a priority at the ARRL.

Mike, NE8P
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Ray W8LYJ
 

I would like to see what is budgeted for this effort?
Ray
W8LYJ


On Oct 27, 2020, at 08:53, Mike Polom <wa8vms@...> wrote:

I mis-typed.  N6JAT should read K6JAT.  K6JAT heads up the Legislative Advocacy Committee.  So, I think the answer to your question is "Yes".
Mike

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

AI3KS
 

Anyone know if there are any updates?

Steve, AI3KS
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Steve
 

Bill, I put 2 antennas in my attic.  A dipole for hf and a discone for vhf.

On Oct 27, 2020 9:45 AM, "Bill R via groups.arrl.org" <kj4vth=verizon.net@...> wrote:
We haven't had any luck convincing HOAs to allow even a simple wire dipole so we ended up looking at homes elsewhere.  No easy task, let me tell you.  HOAs and antenna restrictions are very prevalent!

73, Bill  WJ4U

Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Mike Polom
 

I mis-typed.  N6JAT should read K6JAT.  K6JAT heads up the Legislative Advocacy Committee.  So, I think the answer to your question is "Yes".
Mike
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Bill R
 

We haven't had any luck convincing HOAs to allow even a simple wire dipole so we ended up looking at homes elsewhere.  No easy task, let me tell you.  HOAs and antenna restrictions are very prevalent!

73, Bill  WJ4U
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Lloyd Colston, KC5FM
 

Did you ask the author?

--
Lloyd Colston, KC5FM
Re: Private land-Use Restrictions

Mike Polom
 

I received this email in late March from my ARRL Division Director:
"The exact verbiage is still embargoed, pending fine tuning, but here is a synopsis.
1. Legislation which would pass a PRB-1 type exclusion for amateur antennas in HOAs.
2. Legislation which would allow limited amateur antennas in HOAs as an amendment to the OTARD (over the air reception devices) law.
        3. State driven legislation modeled after the flagpole laws and (in Florida) the garden and clothesline laws."

Subsequently, there was a report out by the Legislative Advocacy Committee at the July ARRL BoD Meeting.  The summary of that report out is as follows.
Mr. Tiemstra shared highlights of the report, calling attention to the appendix submitted that morning which included outcomes of their meeting with Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal. He also provided a summary of their work on addressing private land use restrictions, noting the need to address this matter has only grown since it was introduced, adding that they have been meeting at least once a month, have had numerous exchanges with legislators on Capitol Hill, noting that the pandemic has prevented in-person meetings and has slowed their agenda. He added that their messaging is more successful when they define amateur radio as critical infrastructure of emergency service, which is front of mind right now. There was a discussion of the support that our efforts currently have in Washington and moving as quickly as possible on finding co-sponsors; at this time we cannot guarantee the success of anything, but we must continue to maintain a presence and cultivate friendly relationships in order to meet our goals.
There was a also discussion about providing talking points for Board members to use in talking to members about the HOA issue, as well as an ARRL guide for members to use in negotiating tactics on antenna use restrictions with their HOA’s, as our members expect the League to be actively working on these issues, which the Board concurred would be beneficial for all.

The actual report has not been posted to the ARRL Committee Reports website.  On September 11, 2020 I emailed N6JAT, N4MB and KG4JSZ requesting a copy of the whole report and, to date, I have received no reply from any of them.

As far as I can tell, no substantive progress has been made on this issue in the ~10 years it's been a priority at the ARRL.

Mike, NE8P
21 - 40 of 46